Liriodendron Leaves Germany

Liriodendron - German Forests

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 3 2008 5:41 am
From: dbhguru@comcast.net

Kouta,

Welcome to ENTS. Yes, indeed, this forum is open to all forest and tree lovers. We look forward to your posts.
You didn't do anything wrong on your postv yesterday. The first post of a new member comes through as moderated. When I saw it, I quickly activated your account so you can routinely post.
Again, welcome aboard.

Bob

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 3 2008 6:21 am
From: "Gary A. Beluzo"

Kouta,

Welcome aboard...I am doing a study with Liriodendron and I would love
to get some data from Germany regarding maximum height, CBH, age,
etc. Do you have access to any numbers like that?
Also, I am interested in first leaf and first flower times in other
areas of the world outside the U.S.
Would be happy to share data with you..

In Ecological Space and Evolutionary Time,

Gary

Gary A. Beluzo
Professor of Environmental Science
Division of Science, Engineering, and Mathematics
Holyoke Community College
303 Homestead Avenue
Holyoke, MA 01040

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 3 2008 7:54 am
From: Kouta Räsänen

Gary,

All the specimens in my home town are still young. I have seen bigger
specimens in some botanical gardens etc, but I don't have exact data.
If I find some data, I will post it here.

Kouta

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 3 2008 9:47 am
From: "Gary A. Beluzo"

Than you Kouta. As far as I know, there are no native populations of
Liriodendron in Germany. Is this correct? Has it become naturalized
anywhere?

Gary

Gary A. Beluzo
Professor of Environmental Science
Division of Science, Engineering, and Mathematics
Holyoke Community College
303 Homestead Avenue
Holyoke, MA 01040

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 3 2008 10:22 am
From: James Parton

Kouta,

Welcome aboard. ENTS can use a few eyes elsewhere in the world.

James P.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 4 2008 10:54 am
From: "Edward Frank"

Hello Kouta,

Welcome to ENTS. We have a few members from outside the US in our group. Thre is Darrin Wu from malaysia, a couple of people from India. Occasionally we have had posts from Jeroen Philippona from the Netherlands I believe. Members also report on their trips outside the US and Canada. I want to encourage people like yourself from outside the US to participate. It would be great is local groups or clubs in other countries would form sister organizations to document great trees and remnants of old forests in their part of the world. So again welcome to ENTS.

Ed Frank

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Liriodendron leaves
http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees/browse_thread/thread/8ff52e7bcf7af54f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 6 2008 3:36 am
From: Kouta Räsänen

Joe,

No, I am not familiar with the forestry profession, and unfortunately
I can tell you only some general things about forestry in Germany.

The forestry industry has changed the forests of Central Europe from
broadleaf to needleleaf forests already from 1700s. Some numbers about
percentages of forests in Germany "by nature" and now by the dominant
tree species (source: Sperber, Thierfelder: Urwälder Deutschlands (=
Primeval Forests of Germany), 2005):

Tree species By nature Now
Fagus sylvatica ~ 70 % ~ 15 %
Quercus robur,
Q. petraea, ~ 15% 9 % (now also Q.
rubra)
Picea abies 1 % ~ 35 %
Pinus sylvestris < 1 % 27,5 %

In northern Europe (Scandinavia, Baltic states,...) P. abies and P.
sylvestris are the most common tree species from the sea level, but in
Central Europe these conifers were originally confined to subalpine
mountain forests. However, P. abies grows very quickly at low
elevation, deer and elk damages to saplings are minimal, and these
forests are easy to manage. By contrast, P. sylvestris forestry is not
very succesful although it has been planted already many centuries: it
is susceptible to pests and quality of timber is not as good as in
northern Europe. In Northern Europe it becomes to be very straight but
at low elevations in Central Europe never. The form of this pine is
apparently controlled by temperature, not light conditions, as in high
elevation forests of Alps trees are also very straight. Probably
because of global warming, the timber quality of P. sylvestris is
already getting worse in southern Scandinavia.

Especially the beech (F. sylvatica) forests are often managed so that
only very small openings (like 0.1 acres) are made, and regeneration
is natural. So, although practically all the forests of Central Europe
are influenced by man, the forests for timber production are often
more pleasant to walk than those (conifer forests) in Northern Europe,
where big clearcuts are made. The timber of beech and oaks is used for
furniture etc.

Kouta

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 6 2008 5:38 am
From: "Joseph Zorzin"

I read somewhere that there is a movement in Germany to try to restore the forests to more like what they were many centuries ago- with more species and uneven aged stands. I've read that the glaciers pushed the forests south to the Alps- where many species were lost, not having the vast space to move to as in North America. It would be interesting if European foresters were to try restoring those primeval forests. The species lost to Europe, some of them must available in nearby regions such as Turkey and the Caucus region.

Joe

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Liriodendron leaves
http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees/browse_thread/thread/8ff52e7bcf7af54f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 7 2008 4:37 am
From: Kouta Räsänen

Joe,

There are movements towards more natural forestry, indeed. Some
aspects in german forestry are more natural than in some other
countries, like
* Small openings in beech forests. This results in more uneven aged
stands. Beech is very shade tolerant and seedlings grow fast in small
openings.
* Forests are mainly of natural central european species.

Some other aspects are less natural, like:
* Conifer forests in low elevation.
* Forests are composed of small patches: few acres of spruce, then one
acre of larch (L. decidua, also L. kaempferi), then few acres of beech
etc.
* The most of forests on the whole are small patches between fields.
* Near natural forests are almost unexistent.
* The deer population is unnatural dense resulting very poor
regeneration of species which are susceptible to browsing, like Taxus
baccata. This is known as "The German Problem" and is resulting from
elimination of the natural predators long time ago, and from the
policy favouring big deer stock as game.
* Even in national parks a part of forests is being logged, and only
part of area of every park is totally protected from logging.

Yes, as you wrote, the position of the Alps and other mountain ranges
of Europe (and also Mediterranean Sea) from west to east is regarded
as main reason, why there are fewer tree species left after Ice Ages
in Central Europe than in eastern North America and East Asia. In
Germany there are 9 conifer tree species and about 40 broadleaved tree
species (which grow generally over 25 feet tall).

Restoring pre-ice age forests would first require elimination of
exotics from other continents and of most conifers in low elevation.
This is practically impossible as the percentage of spruce forests
increases all the time at least in privately owned forests. Personally
I am in doubt about any man-made plant or animal moves between distant
countries, although the both places would have been inhabited by the
plant species in question before the Ice Ages. I understand your
point, and from point of view of any european pre-Ice Age plant
community glaciers were "unnatural", and this would defend man-made
moves of plants back to their former areas. However, the present-day
communities have adapted to the present species compositions already
10,000 years, and man-made moves would at least require extensive
research before putting them into practice. Generally it seems to me
that in Central Europe people are not very concerned about exotics,
and I appreciate your more strict regulations, for example regarding
import of plant material etc.

Kouta

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 7 2008 4:52 am
From: Kouta Räsänen

I wrote there are 9 conifer tree species and about 40 broadleaved
tree species in Germany. I meant so many NATIVE species.

Kouta

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 7 2008 5:01 am
From: "Joseph Zorzin"

Kouta, has research discovered which species of trees were lost due to the
glaciers?

Any chance predators will be reintroduced?

Do most European nations have zoning controls to prevent construction on
forest land?

I could and will ask many more questions.

Joe

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 1:54 am
From: Kouta Räsänen

Joe,

Tree taxa of the distant past can been found from fossil record but
often they can been recognize only in generic level. This subject has
been studied a lot, but unfortunately I have not any complete list of
the taxa found. It would be very interesting to get. Some examples of
tree genera present in Europe before the Ice Ages (~2.5 million of
years ago), but now extinct:

Dacrydium, Podocarpus, Cunninghamia, Cryptomeria, Taxodium,
Sequoiadendron, Sequoia, Metasequoia, Thuja, Calocedrus, Sciadopitys,
Tsuga, Gingko, Magnolia, Cercidiphyllum, Carya, Catalpa, Liquidambar,
Nyssa

Sources:
Farjon. 2005. A Monograph of Cupressaceae and Sciadopitys.
Flanagan, Kirkham. 2005. Plants from Edge of the World, New
Explorations in the Far East.
Koivisto. 2004. Jääkaudet (= Ice Ages, in Finnish).

I think a reintroduction of the brown bear would be possible to the
Alps in southern Bavaria in future. In austrian side there are few
bears. However, most of Germany is so dense populated and forest areas
are so small patches that bears would not have chances to live without
contacting continuously with human beings. I think, a reintroduction
of the wolf would be still more difficult.

Note, that the nature in eastern Europe is much more "natural". Land
use has been until now much less intensive, there are remnants of old
growth forest, bears and wolves live there etc.

> Do most European nations have zoning controls to prevent construction on
> forest land?

I understanding is that most nations have some kind of zoning control
but unfortunately I cannot give any details.

> I could and will ask many more questions.

Please, ask freely. I answer in the limits of my knowledge.

Kouta

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 4:28 am
From: "Joseph Zorzin"

Wow, I'm trying to imagine Rome, Paris, London- 2.5 million years ago with the biodiversity of that time.

Joe

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 5:32 am
From: "Gary A. Beluzo"

Kouta,

Very interesting post.

Have you seen anything in the literature that describes European
forests that have come back for at least 500 years after agriculture
or pasturing and what the flora is like compared with historical
records? We have nothing comparable here in the U.S. so any studies
would be interesting to those of us doing work in Old Growth Forests
and "recovering" second growth forests.

Gary A. Beluzo
Professor of Environmental Science

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Apr 9 2008 5:37 am
From: Kouta Räsänen

Gary,

There are certainly such forests. Now only one example comes to my
mind, and it is younger than 500 years. It is a small nature reserve
called Heilige Hallen (Holy Halls), about 60 miles to the north from
Berlin. The area is only about 70 acres. It is known, that in its
place there was some kind of settlement during Thirty Years' War
(1618-1648). It was "protected for all times" already about 1850 by
Great Duke Georg von Mecklenburg-Strelitz. During that time there was
about 150 year old beech (Fagus sylvatica) forest. The stand is on
very good soil, and now there are beech trees up to 4.3 feet in
diameter and up to about 165 feet (50 metres) in height. The amount of
dead wood is 35% from that of the living trees. The stand is of almost
pure beech, like many of the low elevation old growth forests in
Central Europe. Quercus petraea is an another tree species. The
Heilige Hallen is one of the oldest and most famous beech stands in
Central Europe, and its character is considered very natural.

Sources:
* Meyer: Wälder Europas (=Forests of Europe, in German), 1984.
* Sperber, Thierfelder: Urwälder Deutschlands (=Primeval Forests of
Germany, in German), 2005.

By the way, the leaves in the Tulip Trees I am observing are still
very small. Weather became colder again after bud opening and that has
apparently stopped leaf growth. A weather forecast says it gets warmer
again on friday. The spring weather in Europe is very changeable!

Kouta

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Apr 9 2008 6:19 am
From: "Gary A. Beluzo"

Hi Kouta,

Thank you very much for sharing with out ENTS list, so glad to have a
European member of ENTS.
What is your LATLONG?

Gary

Gary A. Beluzo
Professor of Environmental Science
Division of Science, Engineering, and Mathematics
Holyoke Community College

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Apr 9 2008 5:28 am
From: "Joseph Zorzin"

Too bad that much of the Mediterranean area has been wasted by thousands of years of land abuse. We can only imagine how beautiful it must have been with primeval forests.

Joe

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 10 2008 6:01 am
From: Kouta Räsänen

> Too bad that much of the Mediterranean area has been wasted by thousands of years of land abuse. We can only imagine how beautiful it must have been with primeval forests.

I agree. One of the most natural mediterranean forests is in Parc
national de Port-Cros, France. Port-Cros is a small island in
Mediterranean See close to the coast of France. The forest on the
island is not wilderness (there are also inhabitants), it is not old
growth, but however a beautiful, protected, well developed evergreen
forest of Quercus ilex (dominant), Q. suber, Arbutus unedo and Pinus
halepensis (emergent).

Kouta

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 11 2008 5:34 am
From: Kouta Räsänen

John,

Meyer: "Wälder Europas" is not principally about old growth forests.
It classifies the european forests to innumerable communities.
Paradoxically in Europe, where forests are perhaps disturbed most, the
research has divided them so exactly: about every possible species
combination is a distinct forest community.

The another book, "Urwälder Deutschlands" lists 41 forest stands with
a virgin character. All of them are small, and there are not true
virgin forests. I have seen also some another new books about "virgin
german forests" in bookshops, and apparently the german people has
awoke to protect what there is still left.

I have not hiked in "Urwälder von Bayern". The latter book lists the
following sites:

* Grosser Waldstein im Fichtelgebirge - between Hof and Bayreuth
* Steigerwald - close to Würzburg
* Eichen-Heinbuchen-Wälder in Mainfranken - close to Würzburg
* Naturwaldreservat Wasserberg - close to Bamberg
* Eichen-Inseln im Nürnberger Reichswald
* Naturwaldreservat Grenzweg - close to Nürnberg
* Naturwaldinseln im Fichtenmeer der Oberpflaz - to the north of
Regensburg
* Höllbachgspreng, Mittelsteighütte, Rachelseewand in Bayerischer Wald
- to the east of Regensburg
* Auenwälder an der Isarmündung - close to Passau
* Ludwigshain bei Kelheim - to the west of Regensburg
* Naturwaldreservat Weveldschütt and der Donau - to the north of
Augsburg
* Zirben im Nationalpark Berchtesgaden - southeast corner
* "Zauberwald" bei Berchtesgaden - southeast corner
* Naturwaldreservate in den Chiemgauer Alpen - southeast corner
* Isartal mit Pupplinger und Ascholdinger Au - to the south of München
* Totengraben: Urwaldrelikt in den Alpen - to the south of München (a
true virgin stand)
* Paterzeller Eibenwald - to the southwest of München
* Murnauer Moos - to the southwest of München

Kouta

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 11 2008 7:00 am
From: "William Morse"

When I was in the Army, we used to train outside of Grafenwoehr in a
large training area (~6000 ac.) that had been set aside by Prince
Luitpold, regent of Bavaria, back in the early 1900s. It was used as
a training area for the Bavarian Army, the Natzis and, since WW1, the
U.S. and the German Federal Defense Force, i.e. Bundeswehr. There are
some really nice pockets of woods there full of wildlife. The other
training site is also in Bavaria. It is CMTC (Combat Manuever Training
Center) Hohenfels, i.e., the box. It is much larger (about 40,000
acres), representing one of the largest undeveloped tracts of land in
Germany. My unit used to do 45- to 75-day rotations in each of those
areas and the plant and animal assemblages of both sites are
unbelievable. I am sure civilian access is limited........Hohenfels is
home to the largest Norway Spruce I have ever seen (not to mention the
wild boars!).

For more info on the history of each area, check out the below links.
Cheers, Travis

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/grafenwoehr.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/hohenfels.htm
"Though CMTC Hohenfels comprises only 0.24% of the state of Bavaria,
the training area's flora represents over 27% of the plant taxa known
to occur in the entire state. Forty-seven of the taxa collected in
this survey had not previously been known on the installation,
including 14 that are new regional distribution records. Eighty-nine
of the taxa documented in this survey are on the German federal "Red
List" of rare plants; fifty-nine taxa are on the "Red List" of rare
plants maintained by the state of Bavaria. The floristic survey of
CMTC Hohenfels underscored much of what was already known or suspected
about plant diversity on the training area, and brought much new
information to light. Now, however, land managers have documentation
and actual specimens to assist them in managing the property for
optimal training conditions, while conserving the installation's
extraordinary natural resources."

==============================================================================
TOPIC: German Forests
http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees/browse_thread/thread/8ff52e7bcf7af54f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 14 2008 2:07 pm
From: Kouta Räsänen

That's right, John, there is not much left. Many of Germany's best and
largest sites are in the former DDR area, where the land use was less
intensive during many decades. I would like to mention two of these:
Nationalpark Hainich close to Eisenach and Nationalpark Harz between
Hannover and Erfurt. Both were in the border zone between west and
east and next to the both sites there were also training areas of
soviet army. So, as William wrote, armies have been the best
protection for forests... In high altitude of the Nationalpark Harz
there is very natural Picea abies forest. The Hainich is a low
altitude park covered by quite diverse broadleaf forest (the commonest
tree species are Fagus sylvestris, Carpinus betulus and Fraxinus
excelsior). The Hainich is considered an immeasurable worthy pearl,
but I think if it was in North America, nobody of ENTS would write
about it in this mailing list. There are traces of old land use, some
apparently planted trees (like Picea abies) and old road bases, and
there are very few truly old trees.

http://www.nationalpark-hainich.de/
http://www.nationalpark-harz.de/

Kouta

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2008 6:19 am
From: Kouta Räsänen

ENTS,

I am very suspicious of that. Until now it has been believed that
Picea abies has spread to Sweden from the east (=from Russia through
Finland). It has been known that the climate was 9500 years ago
possibly warmer than now, but despite of that, spruce would not have
had time enough to reach the locality: german Gerhard Lang has
calculated that the spread speed of Picea abies is 2-10 kilometres
(1-6 miles) / 30 years. The rapid warming of the climate began about
11500 years ago. So, it would be necessary that spruce would have
spread from the south (through Denmark) or that it would have been
brought by humans (as prof. Kullman said). My understanding is there
is no any evidence in pollen record about the spreading from the
south. And why would humans have planted spruce trees? For christmas
tree plantations?

In a Finnish dendrological discussion list (I am native to Finland)
somebody wrote that prof. Kullman has written also other strange
articles. So, I would wait little bit for confirmation from another
scientists.

Kouta

From: ForestRuss@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 7:01 PM
This is a link to an article on a 9500 YO spruce tree in Sweden.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/04/17/eatree117.xml

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