Relating to Antiquity in Trees

Relating to Antiquity in Trees	Bob Leverett
	Oct 26, 2007

DonB

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 26 2007 8:40 pm
From: dbhguru

Steve,

On a somewhat related theme, I am reminded of the Native American perspective on living with the land. The North American tribes functioned more as part of the environment instead of seeking to be its conquerors. Europeans had an entirely different view of their relationship to the land - conquest, exploitation, and transformation. But European Americans have now been on the North American continent long enough to establish firm roots and and many of us have. As a consequence, I think there is a significant number of European Americans who can relate to forests in a spiritual kind of way similar to that customarily attributed to Native Americans. If a counterpart exists for European Americans to the vision of an English person imagining Merlin next to a mighty English Oak, it might be that of resourceful pioneers and woodsmen living off the land and walking among endless stretches of big trees filled with game. The connection for us is back to the idea of endless wilderness
and individual resourcefulness to exist in that wildness without destroying it. I believe we try to recapture that spirit by setting aside wilderness areas.

Over the years, I have been blessed with many opportunities to be in the company of important Native Americans in forest settings and they have honored me with Native names and recognized what they regard as a special association with the trees. I can tell you that it is a different experience being in their company within a forest setting. There are many stories I could tell about my understanding of their perspective and would be willing to share some if any of the Ents out there would care to hear them.

Bob

== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 28 2007 9:49 am
From: "Joseph Zorzin"

I recall the day a decade or so ago when I showed Bob and Gary the old growth hemlock on the Rowley Farm in Sandisfield, Mass.- now a state forest. One of the "youngins" of the family accosted us with his shotgun- wanting to know what we doing on HIS property. I reminded him that I've been the forester for the family for a long time but that didn't impress him- I suppose I should have notified the 7 families that co-owned the farm but didn't think it necessary.

Bob instantly reverted to his southern good-old-boy shtick- and it worked, the gun went down and we were allowed to walk the property. Bob later told us how he once was passing by some southern mountain man's still and had to do some fast talking to get out alive. I could see that Bob is good a shifting gears from high level intellectual discussions to hillbilly bantering- kinda like Bill Clinton.

Joe

== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 28 2007 6:54 pm
From: "Steve Galehouse"

Bob-

I agree, I think more and more European Americans are tapping into a
spiritual aspect of the native forest, but I think it is more an
acceptance and appreciation of our European tradition, applied to the
American forest (it's not difficult to transfer the aura of an ancient
English or Pedunculate Oak to an ancient White Oak). Some of us, but
not many, are transplanted Celts, or maybe even Druids. Unfortunately,
we still have a ways to go compared with our cousins in Britain and
Europe, who have long understood what was had, and then lost.

Flowering Pears be Dead! Long Live the Scarlet Oak!

Steve

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 28 2007 9:38 pm
From: dbhguru

James,

In time, I hope to assemble some of the Native legends/myths as they relate to trees. I have a library of over 400 volumes to research. Whew!

Bob

== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 28 2007 9:49 pm
From: James Parton

Bob,

In time I would like to do more on the Celtic legends & myths relating
to trees. I at one time studied this alot, but not as much since my
wife left me about 3 years ago. But things are getting back much more
to normal now. It's time to break the books out! The Celts & Native
Americans have more in common than most think.

James P.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 1 2007 3:50 pm
From: DON BERTOLETTE

Miles-I have yet to shake hands with those miserly monarchs, not having been close enough. I have viewed them from across the Owen's River Valley, while among their good friends, the Foxtail Pines, living high up in the Sierra Nevada range. Sharing similar views (well, at least when looking at each other), this stand of Foxtail Pines stands at 10,000 feet and for all the world resembles the Bristlecone Pine brethren across the way. They share the same spartan growth habit (sometimes just a forearm sized strip of bark joining ancient roots with weather abused gnarly branches), similar extremes in temperature and moisture regimes, solar/UV exposures. They share the same middle name, 'economy'.

The Foxtail Pines are a relict stand, found scattered up and down California (yes I've 'shook the hands of the Northern California Foxtail Pine brethren!), vestiges of those stands that were able to sustain themselves through the last ice age (Southern and northern foxtail pines have probably been separated since major upliftings of the Sierra Nevada during the early Pleistocene [ http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plants/tree/pinbal/all.html ] ).

It is thought that Foxtail Pines can live up to 3000 years in the Sierra Nevada, although the highest currently proven age is 2110 years. The Foxtail Pine is closely related to the bristlecone pine, both members of the subsection Balfourianae.
Some great images can be found by going to a Berkeley webpage at:
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?query_src=&where-taxon=Pinus+balfouriana+ssp.+austrina&
where-lifeform=specimen_tag&rel-lifeform=ne&rel-taxon=begins+with&title_tag=Pinus+balfouriana+ssp.+austrina

An approximate location of the Foxtail pine stand I refer to can be found by going to www.TopoZone.com and navigating to

UTM 11 395407E 4034290N (NAD27)

While not the age queens that the Bristlecone pines are, the Foxtail pines are among my favorites (ask me about Brewer's Spruces!)
-DonB

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TOPIC: Relating to Antiquity in Trees
http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees/browse_thread/thread/953be219c5b1bacd?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 15 2007 5:10 pm
From: edfrank@comcast.net

ENTS,

I have been thinking about this since I came across this thread reading through older messages. Why don't people appreciate old trees here like they do in places like England. I see two main reasons.

1) In England these trees are tied to places in which historical events have taken place. They have a long written history and an abundant number of stories, myth, and history relating to each individual place in which these old trees are found. Don B. suggested this earlier. For most people the history of the Americas began with the arrival of European settlers. Native Americans were here, but since they did not have a written history, they did not count. So the trees may extend back beyond any events to which the people can readily relate. I think if there was a greater understanding of the history and culture of the native peoples, and if these concepts could be put in a historical chronological perspective which was more widely know, then the age of these trees would be more accessible and more relatable to Americans as a whole. There is a large disconnect between most of the American population and the native Americans. People trace their ancestry back to Europe, or As
ia, or Africa and not to North America. Even if there are some native American ancestors in the family tree, they are not thought of as significant, partly because of the lack of knowledge of these cultures. So greater knowledge of events prior to the arrival of Europeans would I think enhance the appreciation of the age of these trees.

2) I think the other main reason is lack of knowledge. If you go to a visitors center with a nice tree cookie with different historical events plotted on its rings, people are fascinated. They are impressed by the age of this piece of wood. What they don't seem to do, is to relate the ages shown on these cross-sections with the trees still living in the forest. the trees they are walking past. If you look at the guidebooks and leaflets for most of these parks, there is little mention of the age of the trees people are seeing. They might mention that an area has some old-growth forest, but what does that mean? A greater emphasis on the ages of these tress would strike home with many visitors, if they realized the trees were really as old as they are. Without prompting at this stage, people just don't realize the ages of the trees they encounter. Far more emphasis is placed on the size of the trees, than their age. Both are important. If they knew the trees were really old,
they would appreciate that fact, and would appreciate the trees themselves and what they more.

Ed Frank

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 16 2007 8:31 am
From: Larry

Ed, Great thread! Maybe we can help influence more awareness. I saw
a big loblolly cookie from Bienville Scenic Pines last Nov. I posted
about it on Topica. I think I have a photo, I'll go back and check my
photos. Larry

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 16 2007 8:34 am
From: Larry

Will, What an awesome idea! It is so cool to see rings hundreds of
years past. If trees could talk what would they say? The cored forest
would be such a magnificient place! No where in the world is such a
place! Great Idea! Larry

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 16 2007 6:22 pm
From: edfrank@comcast.net

Will,

There are a number of nature trails out there designed for the blind. They follow a guide rope to a station where there is an explanation in braille. Here they feel the texture of bark, a stone, some moss. There are stations where they listen for birds, the sound of running water, wind. There are stations where they stop to sme[l decaying wood, flowers, pine and other woodsy scents. I bet they more out of a trip that do sighted people zipping through as fast as they can. I would like to develop one sometime.

There is atrend in some circles now to remove the set stations along many of the trails with informational signs to give more of a "wild" experience. I think this is exactly the wrong direction to go. The signs cause people to stop, read the sign, and look for the feature or prcess it is describing. Otherwise they the blow on by the details without noticing any of them. They are worth the intrusion in my mind to get people to slow down and look.

I like the idea of a dendroecology trail.

Ed Frank

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