Re:  Wood and musical instruments - Violins   Lee Frelich   Dec 22, 2005 23:27 PST  Bob: Well, I am off to practice my violin. I have to get ready for the ENTS concert next October. Pretty soon I will exhaust the available etudes and there won't be anything left with higher levels of technical difficulty to study. Once you can do 3 octave arpeggios in all 24 keys, 2 octave scales on one string, and every type of double stop, chord, and harmonic in all 8 different bowings, what else will be left? I will have to start studying the repertoire. Lee Re:  Wood and musical instruments - Violins   Robert Leverett   Dec 23, 2005 04:54 PST  Lee,    Your last paragraph impressed the pizzazzers out of me although I didn't understand a word you said. But then I don't need to since Monica can translate for me. Monica, Monica,where are you? BTW, she's thinking about securing a greater space for the ENTS concert next year. There is a room at Smith College that she thinks would be most appropriate. I think it is their recital hall. It seats over 100 people.    Back to the violin. What are the 8 different bowings? I probably shouldn't ask the question on this tree list, but what the heck. Now that I'm partnered with professor Monica Jakuc, I'm trying to go beyond just simple appreciation of classical music, which I've always had, to understanding more about its history, its many complex structures, modern trends, and much more about the instruments and their individual development histories. I'm even committed to trying to like some of the contemporary classical music, although I confess that most of it still sounds more like noise to me than music. However, going back into time, there's no problem at all. Monica has gotten me thoroughly hooked on the sound of the fortepiano, although I still like the clarity of the modern grand.     With respect to the history of the violin, on several occasions you've spoken to the types of wood that have been used in making violins. Just for the record, could I ask you to review that with us? What can be substituted for what? I once thought that whatever species of spruce Stradivari used, that was it. There could be no substitutes without loss of sound quality. Then I read that our own red spruce could be substituted with no loss in quality. I think in one of our conversations, you took the substitution issue much further. Our new members might enjoy that discussion thread. So what is it that makes a great violin, Herr Professor? Bob Re:  Wood and musical instruments - Violins   Lee Frelich   Dec 23, 2005 07:52 PST  Bob: The wood of the violin is hard maple on the back and sides (usually the curly maple with the tiger-like stripe) and spruce on the front (ring width about 1 mm works best). There are several types of maple that can be used from the Carpathian Mountains, and in the new world, sugar maple makes great violins. Walnut, apple or pear, and other hard woods have been used and make decent violins. Norway spruce has been used in Europe, but any fine-grained spruce can be used such as red or white spruce. Although good wood and the right type of wood is essential, the shape of the interior of instrument, the gradation in thickness of the wood throughout the instrument and the interrelationship of the parts is also very important in producing a good sound. Instruments where the wood is too thick have a dull sound, as do instruments made of all spruce, whereas all maple instruments are shrill sounding. The combination of maple and spruce yields the mellow tones on the lower strings and brilliant steely sound in the upper register. Regarding the bow, it is made of pernambuco, a tropical hardwood. This wood has just the right elasticity to allow one to do the 8 bowings I mentioned--detache, grande detache, martele, sautille, saltato (also called spiccato or flying spiccato), ricochet, slurred staccato, and arpeggio (yes, these are mostly French words). Pernambuco allows the bow to bounce for the spiccato, ricochet, and arpeggio strokes, while still allowing a steady bow for the grande detache, which is a whole bow stroke with continuous contact with the string. I will let Monica tell you what three octave arpeggios, double stops, chords, and harmonics are and explain the system of 24 major and minor keys (including G-flat which is so despised by violinists because it just can't be made to match the tuning of the instrument). BTW I did think of some more difficult things I could try such as three octave scales in double stopped thirds, scales in fingered octaves, and a four octave G-major scale (the latter if I figure out a way to make my fourth finger slightly longer to reach the top two notes). Maybe these carry things to the point of rediculousness. Although....the Sibelius violin concerto does have a very fast slurred staccato scale in double stopped thirds, which I have seen every violinist bomb royally in concert and on recordings, except for Heifetz and Sarah Chang. It is more or less expected that this passage will be screwed up, but they keep trying. I will demonstrate it for you next time we meet (but don't expect it to sound better than a cackling chicken). Lee Re:  Wood and musical instruments - Violins   Darian Copiz   Dec 23, 2005 09:54 PST  Lee, There was an interesting article in Smithsonian magazine a while back on pernambuco and how these trees need to be managed carefually - apparently there isn't anything else that can quite match its properties that make it ideal for making bows. Darian Re:  Wood and musical instruments - Violins   Monica Jakuc   Dec 24, 2005 12:53 PST  Dear Lee, I will continue to educate my sweeetheart in the technical jargon of music. Meanwhile, I enjoyed your descriptions of wood. Is Alaskan Sitka spruce better than the other spruces you mention? I think Steinway uses it for soundboards. I do know that European instrument makers favor would from the Bohemian forest, though some of that is being poached at alarming rates. I'm not sure why that wood is better: age, growing conditions, climate? Have a happy holiday, Monica Re:  Wood and musical instruments - Violins   Edward Frank   Dec 25, 2005 17:27 PST  Lee, Do you have any opion on the submerged wood ideas for stradavari violins? Here are a couple of links for people wanting to browse: http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/001184.html and here: http://www.nagyvaryviolins.com/index.html There seems to be both suporteres and naysayers for the idea. Basically is say that the Stradivari violins were made from wood that had been submereged in water for long periods of time. This submersion lightened the wood by removing some solubles.   Another ponts at the types of varnish he used in the violins - in addition of course to fine craftsmanship. Ed Frank Re:  Wood and musical instruments - Violins   Lee Frelich   Dec 26, 2005 15:04 PST  Monica, I don't think Alaskan spruce is any better than other spruce as far as wood quality. However, since it is a really big tree compared to other spruces, it is more likely that one could obtain a large piece of spruce from those trees. The piano sounding board is huge compared to a violin (although maybe not compared to a cello or bass violin, although most instrument makers use two-piece tops, negating the need to find a huge tree). Lee Re:  Wood and musical instruments - Violins   Lee Frelich   Dec 26, 2005 15:22 PST  Ed: I think we don't really know how Stradivari treated the wood. We really know little about him--we don't even have a portrait. There have been a number of fine violins over the centuries that rival Stradivari's, and the most important component seems to be careful craftsmanship. The market was flooded with fine violins during the 1700s, and demand for high-priced carefully made violins fell during the 1800s, so violin makers responded with cheaper violins. Now there are so many people, and the Strads and Guarneris cost millions of dollars due to their history, so there is once again demand for great violins, and makers are responding with great instruments that cost $10,000-30,000, which is affordable for musicians in symphony orchestras. The Hill brothers of London, who have seen several hundred Stradivari instruments in their repair shop, think that the wood was mostly chosen for its appearance, and Stradivari chose wood with more prominent stripes when he had an instrument commissioned by a rich or prominent person. The Hill brothers think that new wood is just as good as old wood, and they have the world's premiere repair shop. I do agree with Nagyvary (professor from the website you listed) that a number of great violins have hard shiny varnish. A bright red instrument known as 'The Ruby' that belonged to Pablo De Sarasate during the late 1800s is such a case. On the other hand the Huberman Stradivarius, named for its famous owner during the early 1900s, the Polish violinist Bronislav Huberman, was stolen during a concert in Carnegie Hall, and was used in a bar for 50 years, and due to cigar smoke, is now a dull brown, but still sounds great. I have heard it several times recently, since Joshua Bell owns it. It was the instrument used in the movie 'The Red Violin'. Lee Wood and musical instruments... drum sticks   GSRT-@aol.com   Dec 27, 2005 07:00 PST  ENTsters: Having performed as a snare drummer in a Scottish bagpipe band, I have found maple to be the most common and preferred wood for pipe band drumming sticks. Most if not all such sticks seem to be made in England/Scotland and the maple may be imported from the Canadian forests. The complexity and speed demanded by the Scottish-style of drumming requires a wood that is light but hard and has a good ring or timber to the sticks. Better makers and sellers will weigh each stick, in grams, paired-up, and then matched by the tone or timber of the sticks... they do have a telltale "ring" when struck on the skull next to an ear. By contrast, DCI-style of drumming requires a heavy and dense wood and often oak or hickory is the preferred wood, in order to achieve volumes required in outdoor venues. Rhythm and rock drummers also use oak and hickory, but sticks that are slimmer and lighter, by comparison. In orchestral and concert band drumming the sticks are typically maple and may be very thin and light. Many other domestic and exotic wood species have been used for various styles of drum sticks...Anatomy of a drumstick The anatomy of snare, tenor and bass drums is obviously quite different, however, most use maple for the drum shell, and the attention made to the design and manufacture can be similar to that paid to the design/mfg. of string instruments and pianos. didjeridu... five years ago, I had the great pleasure of visiting Sydney and listening to an Aboriginal music group. The didjeridu has a haunting tone but quite a versatile instrument. A couple of links that ya'll might find of interest, as there is no limit to the specific applications of wood, from around the world. http://www.didjshop.com/austrAboriginalMusicInstruments.htm http://www.blackwoodconservation.org/music.html RE: Wood and musical Instruments - violins   Monica Jakuc   Dec 27, 2005 08:24 PST  Dear Lee, It seems that you don't think Bohemian forest wood may be more special than other wood. But what about issues like spacing of annual rings? I think the spacing of rings makes a difference in the ultimate sound-producing qualities of the wood, although I don't think I could be specific about how the differences would translate. Monica RE: wood and musical instruments... drum sticks   Monica Jakuc   Dec 27, 2005 08:31 PST  Dear ENTS, This musical instrument thing is great fun for me. I loved going to the website and reading about the didjeridu. And also about African blackwood. Different trees have different qualities to offer us musicians. A few months ago, I ran across a quote that was used as an inscription on Ruckers harpsichords: "I was once a tree; though alive I was silent; now, though dead, I sing sweetly." Monica RE: Wood and Musical Instruments - Violins   Lee E. Frelich   Dec 27, 2005 10:04 PST  Monica: No, Bohemian wood isn't any more special than other woods, but it was available to a lot of instrument makers. You can find trees with different ring widths in any region. Even in warm climates where deep soils predominate, you can find trees with smaller rings in mountains, on sandy areas, or rock outcrops. Also, even though wood with 1 mm rings widths is preferred for violins, there are exceptions. Maggini made violins from wood with 2-3 mm rings, and even now that his instruments are 400 years old, they are still in demand for their powerful and mellow tone. Grancino made violins with wood from the base of spruce trees, with a marbled pattern in the grain. My violin teacher had one and I played it a few times. The Grancino instruments sound as good as any Stradivari. All these exceptions show that it is a combination of craftsmanship and wood that really determines the sound (the choice of wood is for acoustic and especially esthetic purposes), and there are just as many or more good craftsmen and good wood available today as previously. If I had a few million dollars, however, I would still get a Stradivari violin, because of its history. They have all been played by many great musicians over the centuries, and that gives an instrument special qualities too, the same special qualities as old trees that were present for historical events. Lee   Home