Norway spruce   dbhg-@comcast.net   Oct 09, 2004 17:49 PDT  Jess:      Today I measured a Norway spruce in MTSF to 127.1 feet and a CBH of only 4.2 feet. The 127-footer is a new height champion for MA and at this point the Northeast. think Will has a slightly taller one in Biltmore, I think. At this point, we've measured at least 4 Norways in MTSF to over 120 feet. Bob Norway spruce   Dale J. Luthringer   Oct 13, 2004 21:28 PDT  Bob, Nice pole of a Norway Spruce! I've got one in the Irvine plantation at Anders Run Natural Area to 10.2ft CBH x 131.9ft high though.   The only place I've found Norway spruce in the 120ft class or above is at Anders Run. No other site I've seen in PA even comes close (don't know what the eastern side of the state can support). Maybe somewhere in southeastern PA there might be a topper. Most Norway plantation sites here seem to be started in the CCC era (1930's). I suspect this one was planted somewhere in the late 1800's to early 1900's. I'm not sure on that though. Does anyone know when the first Norway spruce started to be seriously transplanted to the U.S.? It's also growing in an old depositional floodplain, so that probably has a lot to do with it too. Dale RE: Norway spruce   Robert Leverett   Oct 14, 2004 06:25 PDT  Dale:    Good question. I think that I've heard that the species was introduced in the late 1800s. The Mohawk trees are mid-1930s plantation trees. So they are just now turning 70 years old.    I often see larger, i.e. thicker Norway spruces as loners in many places, but they seem to top out at between 85 to 105 feet. Girths are typically 6 to 9 feet. For the height ceiling, the exception to the isolated spruces is a tree in South Egremont, MA. It is now probably around 124.5 feet. Mohawk has 3 above that.    Northampton, MA and environs has a wealth of tall, mature trees. I intend to put some serious effort into locating possible new champions of several flood plain species. Northampton is loaded with gorgeous pin oaks. There are isolated tuliptrees there plus those on a terrace of the Manhan River where the state champ grows.    When you get here for the summit, we'll have a chance to see a few of the Northampton trees, plus much, much more.    What I have never understood is why the Norway spruce has so much trouble reproducing naturally in New England and elsewhere in the Northeast. Does anyone have the answer to this riddle? Bob RE: Norway spruce   John Eichholz   Oct 14, 2004 07:15 PDT  Bob: I have no reply to the riddle, but was surprised to measure a Norway Spruce to 116'+ across the street from my father's house in Shelburne Falls. There are quite a few NS yard trees in town. Now I am wondering about the height of the various patches of them I see in my travels. John RE: Norway spruce   Robert Leverett   Oct 14, 2004 09:35 PDT  John:    Indeed, it would be an interesting exercise for us to pursue this species for a while and just see what kinds of patterns emerge. My sense is that overall New England is favorable Norway spruce habitat. But then, so is New York, and evidently, parts of PA and even North Carolina. I have no idea how well it does in say Michigan - what regional patterns might emerge. Since it didn't evolve over here, and I have no idea how broad or restrictive the seed sources were and are, I doubt that our measurements would have the same meaning as those we collect for the white pine. Still, it would be interesting to match the growth of the Norway spruce to our native conifers.    I think most foresters see it as a fast-growing conifer, but how fast, I don't know. Russ, what is your experience with Norway spruce in West Virginia as compared to Massachusetts? I know that tuliptrees have run-away growth in WV as compared to MA. But Norway spruce? What's the story? Bob Re: Norway spruce   Fores-@aol.com   Oct 14, 2004 16:45 PDT  Bob: Having witnessed repeatedly the ability of Norway spruce to produce cones and seed I have shared your wonderment as to why it rarely appears to expand in range beyond areas where it has been planted. Since becoming more aware of invasive organisms and how they become established, reproduce and spread, I would question whether there could be some soil microbe in it's native terrain that has a long term link to seed germination or some related genetic aspect of Norway spruce survival. It is starting to look increasingly possible that the presence of certain microbial organisms in the soil may be necessary to complete germination and successful development for some plants, big and little. The absence of microbial relationships and diseases that keep populations of some plants from getting out of control in their native habitats is a major factor in why invasives can spread so fast. It is amazing how fast an organism can spread with no competition and nothing to kill it but old age. BTW....my most favorite spot in MTSF is to be in the middle of the red pine plantation (where the trees look as though they were planted by the CCC with a transit to be on center as you walk through the columns of trees) in a driving snow. I know you have to be there during a heavy snow to fully appreciate the affect but it is really worth the spontaneous effort during an early winter snow. Otherwise, it makes a great snowshoe walk. Russ RE: Norway spruce   Will Blozan   Oct 14, 2004 18:58 PDT  Norway spruce was once thought to be reproducing in the Smokies as indicated by small trees in old Champion Paper plantations. However, I examined the small trees (10-15' tall or less) and they appeared to me to be old stunted trees, and I aged one that confirmed it to be quite old and probably a seedling that did not do so well when planted. Michael Davie may now more about this as I think he was involved in the girdling of the stand so they would not cross with red spruce. What I have seen in Asheville, NC is that Norway spruce is a very tall tree, but does not get very large at all. Compared to white pine, a spruce would put on only 1/4 to 1/2 the volume of a white pine and be nearly equally as tall (~120') after 100 years (our oldest "groves"). I know of one tree planted in 1865 that is around 11' in girth and 92' tall. It has a bit of volume to it, but not nearly as much as a 140 year old white pine. However, as an arborist working on them, what they lack in bulk they make up for in weight! I have often thought that the green limb weight of an open-grown Norway spruce would outweigh the trunk. Will   Home