RE: Butresses    Roman Dial    Oct 04, 2005 21:22 PDT  Thanks for this photo. It's very dramatic in its revelation of the underwater buttressing. There is quite a large literature on buttressing in tropical trees that proposes so many hypotheses for why there are buttreses in the tropics that it's a bit overwhelming. However, tip-ups seem to be more rare in tropical forests than bole snaps that it's hard not to go with the support hypothesis for buttresses in the very shallow tropical soils. Tropical buttreses are of the plank variety, mostly (although flying buttresses and stilts are there). That's what I like about the photo. It shows a big butt swelling, rather than the rocket-ship fins of tropical trees. On a different note -- is there a book out there like BVP's book, except on Eastern trees instead? A book that has images and maps of the wonderful hardwoods of ENTS? My son is in college on the East Coast and it would be satisfying to combine a visit to see him with a trip that visits the big & wild wood of the East. They don't have to be forests that have the champions or the most volume. For instance, my favorite Giant Sequoia grove is not home to the biggest tallest or most famous. What' s really neat about it is that when you get up into the trees, all you can see in every direction are more Sequoia and the distant ridges are covered in more big trees. Wild watersheds of old growth -- it seems that is what ENTS members look for and enter as well, worshipping the groves by making mysterious and magical calculations that speak to the wonders they find there. Buttresses, forest musings, and music   Robert Leverett   Oct 05, 2005 06:18 PDT  Roman,    You express what it is that we do very well: "it seems that is what ENTS members look for and enter as well, worshipping the groves by making mysterious and magical calculations that speak to the wonders they find there." Your lyrical description captures the essence of what drives every Ent. Yes, we revere the bizarre forms and the long shadows cast. We seek the elfin-like places where the forest elixir is potent and we're driven to set the objects of our adulation to numerical cadence. On occasion a new direction to scientific inquiry is pointed to by our obsessions, (we rely on the PhDs in our midst to do that - most notably Lee Frelich). We also have our critics. A curmudgeon scientist friend of mine finds little of value in our numbers and the way we pattern forest dimensions. Perhaps he is right from a strictly scientific standpoint, though I am far from convinced of that, but I, for one, believe that just being in the forest, communing with it through numerical patterning represents a higher form of communication and needs no justification. Great forest citizens never lose their identity or individuality in the ENTS world of numbers.  ... material deleted Re: Buttress Musings   Edward Frank   Oct 06, 2005 19:06 PDT  Roman, I always find it refreshing when someone posts a message or reply with a philosophical bent. It is an expression of something other than simple reporting of activities. But I am afraid I must take a different view of your two types of ecologists. I can't envision someone who is fascinated by the fact the rainbow forms when the sun comes out during a rain, not also being equally fascinated by the diversity of color. I would be interested in both aspects. I see the two as being complementary and not divergent interests. There is in some circles a idea, a mistaken idea in my opinion, that by trying to understand how beauty works somehow detracts from its appreciation. I understand Snell's Law, I know of the myriad of tiny water droplets in the air, the angle of refraction of the sunlight, the continuum of colors with dark absorption bands interposed. I know of legends of leprechauns and pots of gold, legends of rainbows harkening a great event. I think knowledge enhances the appreciation of the beauty involved. If I am taking a numerical approach to something like buttress size, it helps me understand what is occurring and enables me a greater degree of appreciation. Take the art of painting. If someone knows nothing about art they may look at a painting and say "nice colors, but the images are not very realistic." A Picasso may be derided for its cubic perspective. Van Gogh may be described as colorful and dramatic, but the thick paint will be looked at askance. With some knowledge of painting, the viewer better will understand what the artist is trying to achieve. He will be able to see subtleties in the works that are not apparent to the casual viewer. He will have perspective on the time and place of the painting. Knowledge of art increases the ability to appreciate its merits and beauty. Scientific knowledge likewise enhances the ability of the viewer to appreciate what they are seeing in nature. Ed Frank "What you see depends mainly on what you look for." Richard J. Vogl   Home