WV Big Trees

WV Big Trees

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TOPIC: WV big trees
http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees/browse_thread/thread/fb7e16dca3526a12?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, May 22 2008 8:59 am
From: ForestRuss@aol.com

ENTS:

I spent the past couple of days helping conduct the annual training for the
naturalists that work in the West Virginia State Parks.

Part of the session involved measuring big trees.

Too much went on to discuss at this time but much of the tree measuring
discussion centered on the search for big trees and how to measure them. After
lengthy discussion, the ENTS methods of extreme math and the aid of lasers to
accurately measure large trees appears to have a convincing lead over
traditional forestry techniques.

I think that if some of the PA ENTS are interested in conducting a big tree
measuring demonstration at Cathedral SP in WV, it is very possible that one
could be arranged to take place this summer? Carl and Tony, Ed....any of you
interested? Mike Powell, the Cathedral SP Super is an ENTS lurker and I hope
he does a post soon!

Until I listened to different measuring methods being used I had no idea of
what a convoluted mess of incredibly tall trees there are and the spread of
ideas on where the measure DBH, CBH, inches, centimeters, feet, 1/10 of
feet....what a general crock..... I think ENTS is raising the bar on the
measurement and quantification of the size and volume of trees to an art form.

On one hand I do not expect any older forestry professionals in the current
generation to take the techniques to heart and use them in their work but as
time passes it will become embarrassing to continue to ignore the
technological advances that ENTS methods of tree measurement take advantage of.

Finally, the Webster Springs sycamore is expected to die and the road to the
park where the tree is located has been closed because the tree is
considered too hazardous. The loss of the tree is viewed by the locals as a serious
historical and economic loss to the area because so many people came from
across the country just to look at the tree.

Russ Richardson

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, May 22 2008 4:04 pm
From: Randy Brown

> Finally, the Webster Springs sycamore is expected to die and the
> road to the park where the tree is located has been closed because
> the tree is considered too hazardous.

'Expected to die?' Can you be a little more specific? I assume the
tree leafed out but they expect it to fall at the slightest provocation?

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, May 22 2008 4:34 pm
From: ForestRuss@aol.com

Yes...the tree is leafing out but because of the fire damage it is expected
to fall at the slightest provocation.

It is truly a local tragedy.

Russ

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, May 22 2008 9:21 pm
From: DON BERTOLETTE

Russ-
I expect to get jumped on, but as one of those elder forestry professionals, I fully endorse using ENTS methods for measuring tall/champion trees, or any other trees that NEED such accurate measurement.

But forestry professionals for decades and decades didn't face such tasks but very infrequently, with the bulk of their work involved in measuring trees by the thousands. Good estimates with precision was what was needed to manage a forest, not super accurate measurements of only the tallest trees.
Perhaps I could put it another way...you're a manager of a 10,000 acre forest. You've been assigned the task of managing that forest in a truly sustainable/environmentally sound way, using exemplary management practices. (Already, I can tell you that you'll fail within your lifetime, but no matter, let's continue). Are you going to contract out the tree measurements to ENTS contractors, who will successfully measure to the tenth of a foot, all your tree's heights, dbhs, and model them for volume. They may be able to get a few big trees done in a day...take off the modelling, maybe a dozen trees per day...if you've 200 trees per acre on average, across 3/4ths of your 10,000 acre forest, how long will it take to finish the job? And how much could you afford to pay ENTS contracted workers?

No, there's a lot I'm embarrassed by for having worked in the forestry profession with BLM, NPS, and USFS but it hasn't been the way we measured trees for the purpose we measured them for. It was totally appropriate technology then, and it still is.

Now, if it became important for land managing foresters to very accurately measure their tallest trees, for whatever reason, and they didn't embrace ENTS methods, I agree, many old fart foresters will have a hard time embracing the changes for the better that ENTS has advocated.

It was recently pointed out that ENTS methodology is legion among ENTS members, but we've not gotten that information out to the rest of the world. The Dendromorphology publication currently in the works is EXACTLY the kind of exposure ENTS needs. But it won't happen overnight...be strong advocates, be passionate, but most of all be patient!

And at the risk of losing my audience this late in the post, I'll again repost my suggestion that ENTS endorse different levels of accuracy and precision, for different levels of need...for example, highest level would be that of champion candidates where all the stops were pulled out...next level would be for potential candidates first seen in the field by the ENTS members owning equipment that can't get the tenth of a foot accuracy...and for those who are not going to want to spend more than $100 (clinometer, ragtape, and cheap calculator), but have great enthusiasm and may find a tree worthy of the levels of need/accuracy and precision spoken of above.

-DonRB

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, May 23 2008 5:45 am
From: dbhguru@comcast.net

Don,

It may come as a bit of a surprise, but I hope not a lot, that I agree with you in your assessment that forestry production methods are appropriate and sufficient for the tasks at hand. I've never really disagreed with that position. I happily leave it to members of the forestry community to decide where and when they would use our more precise methods to good purpose. I also agree with Russ that when it comes to the big tree contests, ENTS methods are needed.
I think what lies subsurface in these tree measuring discussions is the questionable tenacity with which some individuals hold on to and defend imprecise methods of tree measuring. Of course, it's the human dimension, and true to our species, there are lots of shades of gray in defensible positions. This having been said, what has amazed me is the number of heavily degreed folks who show a surprising lack of talent in conceptualizing simple problems that require only basic trigonometry skills. One sees the group-oriented nature of human behavior. As a retired military man, this hardly comes as a revelation to me. Bucking tradition has always carried its risks.

Bob

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, May 23 2008 6:08 am
From: "Will Blozan"

Guys,

Remember too, that the ENTS methods can be used with surprising efficiency
to measure portions of trees- log length, LCR, crown depth and with the
reticle remotely measure the top diameter of a log and tree/trunk diameters
at great distances. The methods- though used for extremely accurate tree
heights- are not limited solely to that application.

Will

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