Savage Gulf Michael Davie
February 07, 2003 4:57 PM
Hey Bob-
   Howsit going? We're finally having something of a winter here. I'm
actually relieved, it's been so warm for so many years. I'm going out
myself this weekend if the snow melts a little.
    I don't know if you've ever heard of Savage Gulf in Tennessee. It's on
the edge of the Cumberland Plateau, with sandstone cliffs around a VERY
steep gorge, it's about 800 feet to the very bottom from the rim. Actually,
a fair bit of the gorges were logged, but there's a pretty big area that's
mostly untouched, and supposedly has some really nice forest. I copied this
from the state champion list, the numbers are circ/hgt/spr/pts:

Carya ovata Shagbark Hickory 100 163 55 276
Magnolia acuminata Cucumbertree Magnolia 123 140 58 277
Quercus rubra Northern Red Oak 146 172 64    334
Tilia americana American Basswood/Linden 164 144 47 319

All of these are in the park. Obviously the numbers are dubious. I think I
offended one of the state foresters, Tom Simpson, by inferring to the state
coordinator Kay Fermann that the trees were very possibly mismeasured. She forwarded my email to him, and he replied with this:


Kay:
Its nice to be called a dope. Strange to me that the Savage Gulf trees
have been measured by at least three different qualified foresters but we
are still wrong! We all three questioned the heights we were measuring but
did them more than once on each tree to verify them. Tell Michael to
consider that these trees are growing in a deep gorge, and the only way to
reach dominance there is to run for the sky.

I ended up writing him, I think placating him, and he was going to take me
in and show me these trees. Yesterday, though, I called John Cristof, the
head ranger (I believe), and told him what I was planning on doing, since
Tom gave me his number as a contact. He seemed very unenthusiastic about my
going in there. I told him I wanted to accurately measure heights, and he
said " I think that's already been done".
   Making a long story short, I'm going to send him a request for research
activity, which is what he ended up telling me to do, while basically
saying not to hold my breath. He said I needed to prove that what I would
be doing would be of benefit to the park. I think I might be able to
persuade him, though. What I wondered was if you knew of anyone in
Tennessee who might be able to put in a word on behalf of ENTS. It seems
like David Stahle took some cores of shortleaf pines in there? I could be
remembering incorrectly. I'm going to tell them what I plan on doing, how I
plan on doing it, and how ENTS is working to highlight and recognize areas
of exemplary forests and species potentials by accurately documenting them,
how we've been showing what places like the Smokies, MTSF, Congaree, Cook
Forest, etc. really have. I'll tell him my connections to GRSMNP. And so
on. Got any other ideas?


Thanks,
Mike
Re: Savage Gulf   Robert Leverett
  Feb 07, 2003 14:44 PST 
Mike (Michael Davie for those who might be confused as to which Mike I'm referring):

    Reference your call for help in approaching the management of Savage Gulf. Maybe we can all put our heads together and think of a way to promote the ENTS database to the management as the vehicle to use to develop historical documentation on important sites. We might get the best mileage from a pitch by somebody like Dr. Lee Frelich. In terms of convincing the management of Savage Gulf that the measurements are wrong, I doubt that we'll make much progress there. At least not for a long time. If a 172-foot height for a northern red oak does not strike them as highly improbable, then their knowledge of the species is too limited to have much of an impact.

    In terms of their response, "Its nice to be called a dope. Strange to me that the Savage Gulf trees have been measured by at least three different qualified foresters but we are still wrong! We all three questioned the heights we were measuring but did them more than once on each tree to verify them.", it's too bad they take challenges personally, but most do. What we need to do is to get to Kay Fermann and invite her to the rendezvous in Pennsylvania. If she's really serious about accuracy, we can make headway. We could begin by calling her attention to the following:

    (1) The measuring diagrams at the ENTS site,

    (2)   A list of very badly mismeasured trees (we can all pitch in on that one),

    (3)   Description of the methodology that commonly leads to mismeasurements (I can provide that),

    (4) Description of the purpose of the ENTS database

    We could follow this up with an invitation to Cook Forest. What do you think? Ideas from others?

Bob

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