| Wintergreen
Gorge |
Dale Luthringer |
| Jul
02, 2003 14:57 PDT |
Bob, Tom, & Bruce,
After a rejuvinating trip into Zoar Valley, I found added energy
to continue my survey of the Wintergreen Gorge behind the PSU
Behrend Campus. It is a very interesting mature to very mature
forest with some trees starting to show old growth
characteristics. I noted the following characters on these
species:
Species Characters of Advanced Age
sugar maple moss on trunks, start of staghead branching,
corkscrew limbs
red maple start of staghead branching
tuliptree some balding, 1st limb 60ft up
Much of the site would classify as a type of wetland soil with
at least some facultative wet to obligate plants and other rich
soil indicator species: trillium, leeks, may apples,
touch-me-nots, sycamore. There is a small array of large dead
downed logs and snags. I did find evidence of "wolf"
trees farther downstream such as two monster N. red oaks at
12.5ft and 15.2ft CBH (neither would break 90ft high) and an old
road of sorts along the opposite stream bank. My take is that
there may be isolated sugar maple and Am. beech in here to 225
years, but the older tuliptrees and white ash I found on Sunday
on the west side of the stream may go to close to 150 years if
not a little bit more. I think I'll have to take my core next
time when I'm in there and see what I can get on the tall (140ft
class tulips).
There was one tree that I was able to put just over 120ft but
was unable to identify. It was growing on a steep shale slope
that I was having difficulty with (my Jack Russell had
absolutely no problem though - hey Bob, now there's an idea... I
could put a reflector on my Russell' and have her bound from
tree to tree... that is if I could keep her attention off the
chipmunks and woodchucks long enough.) Anyway, the tree had
alternate simple branching which didn't help much. The leaves
looked like they had a smooth margin, but I couldn't tell for
sure, at least if they did have teeth they were finer than birch
leaves. The leaves appeared to be in the 2-4" range and
aligned in a fairly close alternating pattern. The bottom part
of the trunk almost resembled Am. basswood, but the limbs on the
upper branches resembled a type of black locust/black walnut
texture (totally through me). I'm absolutely stumped...
cucumbertree? basswood? The tree was showing the beginning signs
of advanced age. I couldn't find any seedlings/saplings with the
same structure in the understory, besides all this I was losing
light fast. I had "evil" thoughts of bringing my
shotgun back to shoot a limb off so that I could ID it... I
couldn't climb it either since I don't have Will's arms, or a
120' rope. Anyway, another lesson is in the making.
The day's finds as follows:
Species CBH Height
sycamore 4.9 113.7
tuliptree 10.4 132.5
white ash 9.9 125.4
UI tree 8.8 120.7
I come up with the following if I include the unidentified tree
in Wintergreen Gorge's Rucker Index:
Species CBH Height Status
tuliptree 8.1 143.8 tallest in PA
red maple 7.8 136.6 tallest in Northeast?
white ash 9.9 125.4 (HOLY MOLEY!!! tree)
E. hemlock 8.2 124.2
sugar maple 5.7 123.4 tallest in PA (1 side of double stem)
black cherry 8.8 121.3
UI tree 8.8 120.7
Am. beech 5.8 119.5
N. red oak 8.2 115.3
sycamore 4.9 113.7
7.62 124.39
This is up from 122.43 on my first data collection venture.
There may be a tulip in here to 145ft, but I think that is
pushing it. I don't know what other surprises are lurking here.
I'm anxious to get into the site where they're putting a bridge
across the ravine (almost finished), which is just downstream
from the tall tree site, to see what I can get for tree ages
from the stumps, and see if they left any significantly tall
trees (not likely). I've scoped out the east bank close to the
bridge and it looks like it's all 2nd/3rd growth, but the west
bank may still hold some new discoveries.
This site is only 2nd in Rucker Index to Cook Forest in PA. The
next closest is Ander's Run Natural Area at 118.65. This site
would be comparable to Zoar Valley except on a smaller scale.
The tops of the gorge probably rise not much more than 150
vertical feet from the deeply cut shale stream bed.
Dale |
| RE:
Wintergreen Gorge |
Leverett,
Robert |
| Jul
03, 2003 06:05 PDT |
Dale:
Soooper doooper job. Wintergreen Gorge is my kind of place. To
secure a 122.43 index so early on is quite a testament to the
site as well as your eye. I have little doubt that you'll push
the index another foot or two and it, like Zoar, achieves the
index without needing a push from the white pine.
Bob |
| More
Wintergreen Gorge |
Robert
Leverett |
| Jul
03, 2003 12:21 PDT |
ENTS:
Dale's confirmation of a Rucker index of 122+ for Wintergreen
Gorge is
no small accomplishment. Wintergreen becomes only the 5th such
confirmation in the Northeast by ENTS. So far we have:
Cook Forest, PA
Zoar Valley, NY
Mohawk Trail SF, MA
Ice Glen, MA
Wintergreen Gorge, PA
I have no doubt that we'll find other sites above 120. In time,
we may
confirm as many as 10 or 12 sites with an index of 120, but that
total
is quite modest. Northeastern sites above 120 are valuable
places.
Those above 125 are real treasures.
Bob |
| Wintergreen
Gorge new record trees |
NR,
Cook Forest |
| Aug
12, 2003 07:17 PDT |
Bob, Bruce, Tom, et. al.,
I was able to get back into Wintergreen Gorge behind PSU Behrend
in Erie this weekend and confirm the previously unidentified
~120ft tree as a slippery elm. I also was able to get a better
shot to its top at mid-day compared to my last measurement at
dusk. I've confirmed shots that average 123.7ft. I think this
turns out to be our current Northeast height record for slippery
elm.
I was also able to get another shot on a previously measured
white ash branch that I couldn't get to on my last trip at dusk.
Confirmed shots for this tree average 129.8ft. This is a new PA
white ash record. Wintergreen Gorge continues to surprise me. I
might find some other interesting trees as I continue to work
the west side terrace of this stream, Four Mile Creek.
Tom & Bruce,
This site might warrant a visit to help me get an idea on age.
I'm still not confident in identifying old growth hardwood
stands. There are a number of trees in this site that are
beginning to show signs of age greater than 150: hemlock, Am.
beech, white ash, sugar maple, sycamore, slippery elm. This site
has been disturbed before as evidence of a "tram" road
at its base. It just might be a very well growing very mature
hardwood stand. I think if I can get a look at that old growth
on Elk Creek you recently measured, it would help me to
determine the status of the Wintergreen Gorge site. I must take
my core in with me on my next trip.
Here's the current Rucker Index standings for Wintergreen Gorge:
Species CBH Height Status
tuliptree 8.1 143.8 tallest in PA
red maple 7.8 136.6 tallest in NE
white ash 9.9 129.8 tallest in PA
E. hemlock 8.2 124.2
slippery elm 8.8 123.7 tallest in NE
sugar maple 5.7 123.4 tallest in PA
black cherry 8.8 121.3
Am. beech 5.8 119.5
N. red oak 8.2 115.3
sycamore 4.9 113.7
7.62 125.13 (124.39 on 6/30/03)
Dale |
| Wintergreen
Gorge tulips |
NR,
Cook Forest |
| Sep
05, 2003 12:34 PDT |
Bob, Colby, Tom, Bruce, Ed, et. al.,
My Jack Russle and I were able to spend a couple of hours in
Wintergreen Gorge behind the PSU Behrend campus to continue
documenting the tall trees in the area last Sunday. I was able
to find another nice tuliptree at 9.5ft CBH x 145.4ft. This is a
new PA height record for tulip. Tuliptree is now officially the
2nd tallest tree species in Pennsylvania. This surpasses the
145.3ft hemlocks at Cook Forest and Snyder-Middleswarth N.A.
There has got to be a stand of 150 foot tulips somewhere in PA.
I still haven't been able to find the elusive "old-growth
hardwood" stand in the Elk Creek watershed in Erie County,
PA (haven't been able to get in contact with the POC that
notified us about it yet).
I received some historical information from my Great Uncle
(family historian, past editor for the Erie paper) about
Wintergreen Gorge. Turns out that there were a series of mills
that were operated within the gorge, mostly near the mouth of
the stream at Lake Erie, starting around the late 1810's to
early 1820's. He did an historical write-up about the gorge in
the local paper about 20 years ago. There was logging in the
watershed via water mills up to the late 1880's.
I've counted rings on downed white ash to 130+ years 30ft up
from the base of the tree. It makes me ponder on the severity of
logging or lack there of throughout the site. Either someone did
a pretty decent cut over 150 years ago, or this is just a very
productive site. Mayapples and maidenhair fern scatter the
forest floor. The sides of this gorge are very steep with very
thin soil over topping shale substrate. Let's just say it's
pretty slick in there after a rain. It is very easy to tear up
the hillsides with just one person. The flats along the stream
meanders that haven't been logged in over 100 years have been
very productive in terms of tree height. I think we may have a
couple of acres of borderline old growth in there. I've noted E.
hemlock, Am. beech, sugar maple, tuliptree, N. red oak, white
ash, and slippery elm showing old growth features, but most of
these trees are spread out. It is at least a very mature
hardwood forest.
I also got into my first stand of forest grown slippery elms in
the gorge. Not as high as the 123.7ft specimen, but still
respectable. The days finds as follows:
Species CBH Height
N. red oak 8.8 101.2
N. red oak 10.9 107.2+
slippery elm 7.2 103.2
slippery elm 8.8 112.4
slippery elm 8.3 116.3+
sugar maple 7.8 117
tuliptree 9.5 145.4
white ash 7.8 119.7
white ash 8.7 120
The Rucker Index for Wintergreen Gorge now stands at 125.29, up
from 125.13 on 8/10/03.
Species CBH Height Status
tuliptree 9.5 145.4 tallest in PA
red maple 7.8 136.6 tallest in NE
white ash 9.9 129.8 tallest in PA
E. hemlock 8.2 124.2
slippery elm 8.8 123.7 tallest in NE
sugar maple 5.7 123.4 tallest in PA
black cherry 8.8 121.3
Am. beech 5.8 119.5
N. red oak 8.2 115.3
sycamore 4.9 113.7
This place is crying for a 130+ sycamore. There's still hope.
This place could easily keep me busy all winter.
Dale |
| Re:
Wintergreen Gorge tulips |
Thomas
Diggins |
| Sep
05, 2003 13:50 PDT |
Dale,
Awesome stuff! 130' Rucker is not out of the question, as
sycamore, bitternut, red oak, white pine, etc., all could bring
you up. Still, even "as is", Wintergreen Gorge is
vying with Green Lakes for #4 tall-tree site in the NE. Not a
bad day's work! I'm absolutely itching to get into Wintergreen
and others of those beautiful PA gorges. They're absolutely
tantalizing from the I-90; I'm only imagining what marvelous
sites they must be on the ground. You're right about those
tulips. I suspect there will be some 150' trees in the gorges.
And lots of old growth, even if some logging was done in the
past.
Tom
|
| Wintergreen
Gorge strikes again |
NR,
Cook Forest Env. Ed. |
| Oct
20, 2003 08:54 PDT |
Bob, Colby, Tom, Bruce,
I had a free day yesterday to get back into Wintergreen Gorge
behind PSU Behrend Campus to try and wrap up a mature forest
section just south of the newly built bridge across the gorge.
My 'Russel' and I had quite a day, me measuring trees, and her
chasing squirrels and chipmunks.
I got a good look at the crown of the tallest tuliptree (9.5 x
145.4) I've measured in this area from across the creek and on
top of the opposite bank. It appears that I still haven't
measured its tallest branch. The bottom is quite obscured from
this point of view and would definitely take another person to
help me hold poles across the creek to accurately use the
multiple sine triangle method. I think I'll wait until the
leaves fall off to try and get another shot at the canopy. The
most southerly side of the crown has always been out of my line
of site. It's just an estimate, but this tree might come just
shy of 150 when all is said and done.
I crossed the stream and starting working my way northward along
the western bank of the gorge. I came to a 20ft bench that
jumped up in elevation. I almost skirted around it thinking that
it wouldn't be worth my time to look on top of this bench,
because the trees would "probably" be shorter. Then I
thought, well, even if they are, I'll still be able to get a
better view of the lower bench that I'm on. Man, was I ever glad
that I did. There were a couple of nice white ash here in the
lower 120's, some dandy sugar maples in the upper 110's, and a
cucumbertree that was able to elicit an ENTS yell by the time I
was done measuring it.
The farthest distance I could get to the crown of this tree was
only from directly underneath, so the height might go a bit
further. I wasn't able to see through to the southern part of
the crown either. I put this cucumbertree to at least 123.1ft!
That's a new Northeastern U.S. height record! It beats the
previous record that's been held at Cook Forest for quite some
time at 122.9ft (although I haven't re-measured that tree in
about 2 years).
I also managed to bump up the Rucker Index a little more with a
121.1ft sycamore. I figured there had to be some sycamore in the
120's in there somewhere. One sycamore I noticed in one of the
bottom swales looked to me to be ~12ft CBH. Well, sycamore still
throw me... it's CBH turned out to be 14.7. As I circled around
it to get its CBH I noticed some stonework inside. I thought to
myself, now who would go to all that trouble to build a pedestal
inside a hollow sycamore? Then it hit me... somebody built this
stonework pedestal probably somewhere in the mid-1850's and this
sycamore grew totally around it. There is no wiggle room between
the stonework and this tree. This pedestal is a good 3ft across
by 5ft high. Old sugar maples planted in rows on the bench above
suggest an old field or fence row within 100 yards of this pedestal. "Wolf" N. red oaks (~15ft CBH) and sugar
maples (~11ft CBH) are in the vicinity along with evidence of an
old road. It's just amazing how fast that sycamore has grown
over the years. The top doesn't look stagheaded at all. That
sycamore can't be any older than 150 years, if not much more
than 100.
I've still got to check out another bench that I passed up on my
first cursory trip into the area back in the late spring. There
were a couple more dandy hardwoods to check out.
I was finally able to work my way all the way up to the new
bridge which is under construction. I would definitely say that
the area that the bridge is in has been the most unimpressive
woodlot I've come across in the gorge. There is a decent stand
of sycamore that are beside the south and east bank of the
bridge on a flat. This site may have held some nice sized
sycamore before they put the bridge through. The north and east
bank and both the north/south side of the west bank looked
unimpressive. Once I check the last flat or two upstream, I
might try a walk downstream from the bridge to see what I can
come up with.
The days tally as follows:
Species CBH Height Comments
black walnut 5.2 92+ south side of bridge
cucumbertree 8.6 123.1+ new NE height champ
E. hophornbeam .9 28
N. red oak 15.2 85.5+ wolf tree
N. red oak 11.5 109+
N. red oak 12.1 111+ new 12x100 class
sugar maple 11.2 101.7+ wolf tree
sugar maple 8 114.4+
sycamore 9.5 111.1+
sycamore 11.6 112.2
sycamore 14.7 113.5 encompasses stonework pedastal
sycamore 12.2 113.5 new 12x100 class
sycamore 9.7 113.9
sycamore 8.1 117+
sycamore 9.4 118.1+
sycamore 9.2 119.9+ beside bridge
sycamore 7 121.1
tuliptree 9.4 120.9
white ash 9.6 114.1+
white ash 7.5 122.5+
Its latest Rucker Index:
Species CBH Height Comments
tuliptree 9.5 145.4
red maple 7.8 136.6 tallest NE
white ash 9.9 129.8 tallest PA
E. hemlock 8.2 124.2
slippery elm 8.8 123.7 tallest NE
sugar maple 5.7 123.4 tallest PA
cucumbertree 8.6 123.1+ tallest NE
black cherry 8.8 121.3
sycamore 7 121.1
Am. beech 5.8 119.5
8.01 126.81
So, now the Wintergreen Gorge Rucker Index stands at 126.81.
This is up 1.52 points from 125.29 on my last visit. We might
pull a 128 out of this site before everything is said and
done...
Dale |
| Re:
Wintergreen Gorge strikes again |
Thomas
Diggins |
| Oct
20, 2003 10:21 PDT |
Dale,
WOW! Killer cuke'!
Your work on the PA Lake Erie gorges is clearly demonstrating
that Zoar Valley is not just a fluke, but in fact the
"type" forest for what might actually be a new
ecotype. Zoar undoubtedly has the most extensive old-growth of
any of the Lake Erie gorges, but I anticipate we will eventually
find half a dozen major, and perhaps dozens of minor,
high-quality gorge forests stretching from just south of Buffalo
to the outskirts of Cleveland. Various stages of maturity should
be represented, including additional old growth (the Nature
Conservancy has qualitatively identified old growth in the
Chatauqua and Twenty-mile Gorges in NY). In addition to being
superb tall-tree sites, these gorges will likely display canopy
diversity far in excess of anything seen on the uplands in the
region, with 15-25 species in the overstory. Cool.
Tom
|
| RE:
Wintergreen Gorge strikes again |
NR,
Cook Forest Env. Ed. |
| Oct
20, 2003 11:04 PDT |
Tom,
If we can get a cuke' to 123+ with ease in Wintergreen Gorge (4
Mile Creek), I'm thinking there's a 130' class out there in a
more protected area. The tree didn't look to be much over 130
years old. There are portions of Wintergreen that may pass as
old growth, but most of the area I would classify as very mature
2nd growth growing in fertile soils. This has the makings of a
great comparison study. I've been given a tip that the next
gorge system over (6 Mile Creek?), may hold some decent
specimens also.
Do you know who or what group qualified the 'Coho Property'
(mouth of Elk Creek and assoc. cliffs of Lake Erie) as old
growth?
Dale
|
| Re:
Wintergreen Gorge strikes again |
Thomas
Diggins |
| Oct
20, 2003 13:10 PDT |
Dale,
Yes... Six-mile Creek should also be awesome. Emergent tulip
trees are clearly visible from the I-90 above. Looks like a
beautiful unbroken canopy of impressive broadleaf forest. I'm
hoping for some old growth (slopes at least?), but this site is
pretty accessible from downstream, so it too may have been
logged in the past. I believe the TNC estimates for acreage of
old growth in the two NYS gorges are less than 100 acres each -
even some of the slopes were logged. Hey, we get surprised
sometimes though. No idea on the "Coho Property".
Sounds like that was a disappointment. Most of our experiences
in NY went the other way, especially in the western end of the
state with its shorter European history. As often as not, when
someone suspected they had old growth, they did (e.g., the
superb Lily Dale Woods).
Tom
|
| Wintergreen
Gorge update |
Dale
J. Luthringer |
| Nov
03, 2003 09:55 PST |
Bob,
I took an opportunity last Saturday to get back into Wintergreen
Gorge
behind PSU Behrend. I walked part of the north and eastern cliff
abutment behind the southern end of the campus in search of
stunted old
trees. We definitely have stunted hemlock and some oaks along
the cliff
face and edges that would go over 150 years. The acreage is
quite
minimal though. I still haven't walked the entire eastern cliff
edge,
but we may have some small stature old growth here.
I then walked down into the gorge from the eastern side along
the main
cliff face to check on the record red maple (136.6ft). I then
crossed
the creek, J.R. in tow, to finish up tallying the benches at the
base of
the western side of gorge. Found a couple more nice trees
including
some personal bests and a new PA basswood record. The days tally
as
follows:
Species CBH Height Comments
Am. basswood 9 121.7 new
PA record (42 7.110N
x 79 59.522W) fox squirrel lives in its trunk
Am. beech 7.1 107.6
Am. beech N/A 114.4
Bitternut hickory 5.1 116.6 personal
best
Bitternut hickory 3.1 98.3
Black walnut 5 111.9 personal
best
Sugar maple 9.4 108.9
Sugar maple N/A 113.4
Sycamore 7.7 129.7 I
knew there was a 120'
in there somewhere! (tough tree)
Tuliptree 8.4 130
Tuliptree 11.7 125.6 double
Vitus sp. 2.1 personal
best
White ash 6.5 120.3
Witch hazel .6 24.5
The basswood and sycamore were both buggers to measure. I had to
climb
almost halfway up the very steep and slippery western bank to
get a good
shot on both. It was quite precarious to say the least. then I
looked
over to see that 'J.R.' made it up the slope with ease and even
had
enough running room for chasin' chipmunks. I'm going to have to
bring
cleats on my next trip. I'll have to blame that on Will. He wore
down
my hiking boots on those steep North Carolina slopes last fall.
Looks
like its time to get a new pair of boots.
The Rucker Index bumped up a good bit also. It went from 126.81
on
10/19/03 to 127.89 on 10/25/03:
Species CBH Height Comments
Tuliptree 9.5 145.4
Red maple 7.8 136.6 tallest
NE
White ash 9.9 129.8
Sycamore 7.7 129.7
E. hemlock 8.2 124.2
Slippery elm 8.8 123.7 tallest
NE
Sugar maple 5.7 123.4 tallest
PA
Cucumbertree 8.6 123.1+
tallest NE
Am. basswood 9 121.7 tallest
PA
Black cherry 8.8 121.3
8.4 127.89
Dale |
| RE:
Wintergreen Gorge update and general chit chat |
Dale
J. Luthringer |
| Nov
03, 2003 16:00 PST |
Bob,
I got to the red maple, but shooting through the canopy and
ground cover
proved too time consuming for what I was prepared to do that
day. I
think Wintergreen's index will start slowing down now. With
perseverance it should go to 128 easy, but I think the mid 129
range is
out of the question... it sure would be nice to be wrong though.
It is very hard getting into some of these gorge systems in
terms of
private property... that is, without going into my camouflage
mode. I
tried getting into 6 Mile Creek (next easterly drainage) earlier
that
day but was thwarted at all easy access points. My next try will
be
from downstream-up, instead of upstream-down. Looks like there
are some
nice tulips and sycamores to document here. If there is no
public
access from the downstream route, then I'll have to proceed to
'hat-in-hand' techniques. Most of these gorges are accessed by
fisherman on a regular basis with fairly easy public access
points. I
haven't found one yet for 6 Mile Creek.
These gorge systems continue to surprise me. I haven't given up
hope on
the Elk Creek system either. Very steep cliffs here reminiscent
to Zoar
Valley, but take about 100-150ft off vertical height. Most of
the flats
are farmed or recently logged within the last 80 years. The few
areas
that haven't been logged since the mid-1800s are disappearing
fast.
Wintergreen has escaped much of this do the best of gorge being
under
university jurisdiction.
Dale
|
| Wintergreen
Gorge from the air |
Linda
Luthringer |
| Dec
23, 2003 15:24 PST |
Bob,
Tom, Bruce,
Here's a quick look at Wintergreen Gorge from the air:
http://www.terraserver.com/imagery/image_gx.asp?cpx=-79.98668435&cpy=42.11267318&res=
8&provider_id=305&view=A&t=pan
The parking areas of Penn State Behrend is almost directly
center of the image. Note the roadwork about 2" north of
center going across 4 Mile Creek. Wintergreen Gorge is between
the RT8/Parade St. & Harborcreek exits on I-90. I've
surveyed the entire stretch from the center of the photo north
to the roadwork. There still might be some surprises south of
center to just north of I-90.
The next image is of 6 Mile Creek. It is just east of 4 mile
creek just outside of the above image and between the
Harborcreek and Wesleyville exits on I-90:
http://www.terraserver.com/imagery/image_gx.asp?cpx=-79.94877464642144&cpy=
42.12607789853146&res=8&provider_id=305&view=A&t=pan
The first place I'd like to hit here would be just south of
center of this picture. Just south of where 6 mile Creek
intersects I-90.
Both images are located in Erie, Erie County PA. It's in middle
of the upper northwestern notch of PA.
The doc says I can start putting weight on the ankle, but only
in the brace.
It's killin' me, Bob, it's killin' me!
Dale |
|