Southeastern Pennsylvania   Robert Leverett
  Feb 14, 2005 13:08 PST 

Dale:

   Sooopa Doopa!! Cook Forest continues to dominate PA forests with
respect to the Rucker index (135.94). I'd really like to put an early
spring trip together to Fairmont Park to collect more data and give that
other great PA site more opportunities to reveal its stuff to us. Will's
initial visit indicates that it is almost certain to go over 130 and
become only the 4th such site to do that in the entire NE. However, I
wouldn't want to go down there unless we could get at least 4
experienced measurers. Ideally, Scott Wade, Ed Coyle, John Eichholz,
John Knuerr, Howard Stoner, Gary Beluzo, Susan Scott, and myself could
agree on a date. If that induces Will Blozan to drive up from NC and you
to drive out from Cook Forest, then it really would be party time. If
Holly Post is up to snuff by then, we'd have 11 and perhaps Ed Frank
could come from western PA. Heck, let's dream big. Over comes Tom
Diggins. With 12 or 13 of us on site, we could do a phenomenal job.

Bob
Re: Southeastern Pennsylvania   Will Blozan
  Feb 14, 2005 18:04 PST 

PA and NE folks,

Fairmount Park will without a doubt, be #2 in PA within a few hours of a new
visit. I did not measure white pine which I saw over 125', and taller
specimens of several species will be found. The question is where to look.
Focus on the streams and deep coves, and look for species I have not
measured yet. Hemlock must go higher (if you can find a living one) as
should white oak. Green or white ash should hit 140' with careful scouting.
Sycamore, if pressed in with tulips should go to the mid 140's as well.
Contact Bill McKibben (sp) for sites, or my brother may know of more places.
My brother just took me to a random place he thought was good, and look what  I found! The park is HUGE!

Look out Cook Forest!

Will

 

Re:  Southeastern Pennsylvania    Robert Leverett
   Feb 15, 2005 08:14 PST 

Dale and Will:

   With varied habitat and rich soils, Fairmont may give us our best
crack at understanding mid-Atlantic growing conditions. With Belt Woods,
Chase Woods, Rock Creek, and Fairmont Park as prime sites, we may
finally begin to box in species maximums for the eastern mid-Atlantic
belt for at least dozen hardwoods. Then would come mid-Atlantic west,
which I suppose can also be thought of as the eastern side of the
mid-West. Oh Boy, how many ways can we slice the pie?

Bob
Re:  Southeastern Pennsylvania    wad-@comcast.net
   Feb 15, 2005 11:42 PST 
ENTS

One of the elsewheres that I think we will find a lot of big trees is the Susquehanna river valley towards the bottom of Pa. This area contains a lot of plants species that are found in the Carolinas. Rosebay rhododendron, sourwood, deciduous azaleas etc.

Also from some historic trees that were in that area. Several past champion trees are from down that way. It is also well removed from any city or sprawl. Someday I hope to go and explore Franklin county, Pa.

Scott
Re:  Southeastern Pennsylvania    Lee E. Frelich
   Feb 15, 2005 12:05 PST 

Scott:

Have you been to Gypsy Woods, part of the Natural Lands Trust, in
Montgomery County, PA? It is a small stand, but is supposed to have the
tallest tulip poplars in the northeast.

Directions to it are given at their website:
http://www.natlands.org/home/default.asp

Lee
Re:  Southeastern Pennsylvania    Darian Copiz
   Feb 15, 2005 12:28 PST 
Scott,

By Sourwood do you mean Oxydendrum? If so where can you find it? I
never knew it grows that far north. The Susquehanna River valley may
have some similar conditions to the Potomac although the Susquehanna
has the advantage of a bigger gorge with deeper ravines in some
locations. One disadvantage is that it no longer experiences flooding
and the resultant sedimentation.

Darian
Re:  Southeastern Pennsylvania    wad-@comcast.net
   Feb 15, 2005 12:53 PST 
Oxydendrum arboreum is listed as occurring in the following counties per "The Vascular Flora of Pennsylvania" by Ann Rhoads and William Klein, 1993.

Greene
Fayette
Westmoreland
Allegheny
Butler
Delaware

Another source listed it in the Susquehanna river valley. I will have to look for it again. Realizing that the flooding brings nutrients, it may benefit some trees growing in the flood plain. They don't get wiped out every now and then.
Re:  Southeastern Pennsylvania    Dale J. Luthringer
   Feb 15, 2005 16:29 PST 

Bob,

Here's a forward from one of my associates in the Bureau of Forestry.
He makes an interesting point on where most of Pennsylvania's past
champion trees are located:

-----
the majority of Pa's big trees are not in a forest or even woodlot
setting. They are in the urbanized SE corner of the state. They have
survived & thrived because they are in private lawns &, estates or in
public parks, church/cemeteries, arboretums  etc and have been taken care
of as landscape specimens for 100 or more years.

The 1993 edition of Big Trees of Pa had:

County # State Champions  Comments
Philadelphia Co. 39 most were in Morris Arboretum or on university campus'
Delaware Co. 40 most were in Tyler Arboretum  
Chester Co. 24 many in Longwood Garden including champion Mountain Laurel
Lebanon Co. 21
Montgomery Co.  21
Bucks Co.  17
Berks  Co.  5
Lancaster Co.  5

Dale
Re:  Southeastern Pennsylvania   wad-@comcast.net
  Feb 15, 2005 19:19 PST 
Bob, Dale, ENTS

Also consider that William Penn asked the people he granted land to, to set aside a percentage of their land to remain as forest. The counties mentioned are mostly the original counties. These tree saves later became the specimens of today. In reading this 1933 copy of Penn's Woods, I am seeing that not too long ago there were a lot of giants around here. I will post the lists of cbh numbers at a later date. Some are amazing. No height info was recorded unfortunately.

Also, I believe that the majority of trees in the 1993 edition are in the most populated counties. Therefore, a greater number of people that are interested in big trees, and a greater number out looking for big trees. When they are growing in lawns and arboretums, they are easy to find. When you have to hike in, and spend some time looking, it gets difficult. I am sure, that if time was given, some of the counties in the middle of the state would yield a lot of new champs. The Haskell oak would have never been found if I weren't a determined, stubborn person. A big forest grown red oak in the middle of a 700 acre farm?? that isn't easy to find. I think private property prohibits a lot of trees from being found.

Scott
Private Property   Darian Copiz
  Feb 16, 2005 05:36 PST 
Scott, ENTS,

I agree. I think private property has a lot of potential. I remember
reading about a giant holly in NC that the owner didn't want to report
because he didn't want a bunch of tree huggers coming around looking for
it. An understandable sentiment, because if I was nearby I'm sure I
would do just that. Who knows how many giants are on private property.
However, many trees do eventually leek out to the public. The father of
a friend of mine discovered the National champion beech when asking the
owner for permission to hunt on the property. Another way some good
finds are discovered are when property is about to be developed.

Darian
SE PA update   Dale J. Luthringer
  Feb 28, 2005 16:59 PST 
Will,


... We decided tohit a few of old growth sites in the vicinity of Jacobsburg
Environmental Education Center due to lack of time and political issues
surrounding some unprotected sites nearby. There is a small old growth
site at the center which is called "Henry's Woods". We also hit a small
old section of secondary old growth at Nockamixon State Park (oak
dominated) and noted a small old growth area at Beltsville State Park
(old hemlocks) around a picturesque section of stream. We also took a
short jaunt into a nice 2nd growth site at the Bethlehem Watershed
Authority.

Dale
Re:Old growth forest remnants   wad-@comcast.net
  Mar 01, 2005 13:45 PST 

ENTS

I recently purchased an old book entitled "Penn's Woods 1682-1932" written by Edward E Wildman in 1933. I collect old tree books, especially those of Pennsylvania. I found something that many of you may find intresting. It is called the "Subway tree" from page 126. Enjoy!

     "The king of a dense woodland of our glacial era was uncovered by subway workmen on August 6, 1931, at Eighth and Locust Streets in Philadelphia-the stump of a giant tree- measuring seventeen feet in circumference. The Academy of Natural Sciences pronounced it a Bald Cypress (Taxodium distichum) and estimated its age at 100,000 years.
     Found thirty-eight feet below the surface of the street and ten feet below sea level, this "Subway Tree"was in a remarkably well preserved condition and is a fine specimen of buried wood. Imbedded in this locality at various intervals were other stumps, all of which gave further evidence of the presence of forests in those prehistoric days when the hand of Nature wrought the great miracles of the glacial period.
     Submitted by Mrs. Charles S Musser, New Century Club of Philadelphia."

There is a picture also. I guess we need to start digging for the really big ones?!?

Scott
RE: Old growth forest remnants   Willard Fell
  Mar 02, 2005 05:17 PST 
In re Baldcypress range;

On the east Coast, Southern Delaware and Extreme Southern NJ. In the
Midwest it occurs in Southern Ill, and the lower Wabash Valley in
Indiana.
RE: Old growth forest remnants    wad-@comcast.net
   Mar 02, 2005 06:53 PST 
Gary

Apparently it is only in Pa as an introduced plant. I guess it was here at one time, though from the story. A lot of interesting plants were wiped out in SE Pa as Philadelphia expanded. Myrica heterophylla used to grow here, but was last found in1946. I am sure there are other plants that used to grow here, but are now gone.

Scott