Poconos - Newbie questions   Ron Gonzalez   Dec 03, 2005 15:07 PST  Hello everyone, I've been reading everybody's posts here, and enjoying it immensely. I see I've got a lot to learn...! I became interested in old growth woods of the NE about three years ago. The tree that sparked my interest was the red spruce, which musical instrument builders call "Adirondack spruce" (not a very accurate name, is it?). After a crash course in tree ID, finding Barbara McMartin's books and Mary Byrd Davis' catalog of old growth sites, and then "Ancient Forests of the Northeast" and Dr. Micheal Kudish's "The Catskill Forest: A History," I went on a grand tour of the Catskills and Adirondacks in search of the 'elusive' red spruce and the forests in which it grows. Then I noticed a beautiful spruce-hemlock-rhododendron swamp right in my mom's development in the PA Poconos! I walked through incredible forests in NY, then Cook Forest (wow!), then Snyder-Middleswarth, Ricketts Glen, Palmaghatt Ravine, the Elders Grove, and so on. I'm now known by family and friends as a complete "tree nut." My hiking buddies bemoan my slow pace as I linger in mature forests, oohing and aahing over balding bark, twisted trunks, 'stag-headed' crowns, stilt-roots, 30-inch thick spruce trunks and thick mats of moss on hummocks and boulders. There is something about the glorious, moist mess of a great old northeastern forest. I've been tramping around less-traveled paths in the Poconos, looking for old woods. The Poconos region intrigues me because it has been so disturbed and is under such threat now, yet I see what may be mature woods here and there, hidden in steep waterfall ravines, bogs and swamps. The area has many northern features such as rhodora heaths, spruce-tamarack swamps and boreal kettle bogs, surrounded by pitch pine-mixed oak-mountain laurel barrens with northern hardwood-hemlock-white pine-rhododendron communities mixed in. It's unlike any other area I've spent time in. I'll be volunteering with the Long Pond branch of The Nature Conservancy, soon. I have been trying to teach myself how to better recognize forests that have not been disturbed or have experienced only minimal disturbance. I would also like to be able to measure the trees I'm finding and submit the data I collect for evaluation, criticism, etc. Naturally, I have more than a few questions: - What books should I be reading? (Especially anything that will help me better recognize old growth vs. second growth...) - What tools should I be using? - I see that you all use the c.b.h. measurement, as opposed to the d.b.h. measurement. Do you use a simple cloth tape measure to get this measurement, or is there a better tool? - How high up the tree should I be measuring cbh? About 4 feet? - I see that there is a laser tool mentioned for measuring the height of a tree. Is there a particular make/model that has been found to work well? How difficult will it be to obtain accurate-enough measurements? - Anything else I should know about? (I know that of course there is, but maybe I'm missing something very obvious...) My goal is to be able to collect accurate data on the natural history of some of my favorite areas, and maybe this will help others working to preserve the most interesting and unique sites. I guess I'm asking a lot, but I hope someone out there can start me on the right track. For now, I'll keep reading, and keep looking for old forests. Thanks, Ron Gonzalez R Re: Newbie asking for advice...   Edward Frank   Dec 04, 2005 04:19 PST  Ron, Welcome to the ENTS list. Not everyone here is a trained tree expert. Many of us are hobbiests who pursue trees as a passion rather than a vocation. Acouple of comments; you wrote: From: "Ron Gonzalez" <rong-@earthlink.net>; To: <ENTST-@topica.com>; Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 6:07 PM "I'm now known by family and friends as a complete "tree nut." My hiking buddies bemoan my slow pace as I linger in mature forests, oohing and aahing over balding bark, twisted trunks, 'stag-headed' crowns, stilt-roots, 30-inch thick spruce trunks and thick matts of moss on hummocks and boulders. There is something about the glorious, moist mess of a great old northeastern forest. " I have never understood why people visit a forest then rush thorugh it like they were in a race. The purpose of a hike in the woods is not to get in and out as quickly as possible, but to enjoy the hike. You also ask a series of questions: - What books should I be reading? (Especially anything that will help me better recognize old growth vs. second growth...) - What tools should I be using? - I see that you all use the c.b.h. measurement, as opposed to the d.b.h. measurement. Do you use a simple cloth tape measure to get this measurement, or is there a better tool? - How high up the tree should I be measuring cbh? About 4 feet? - I see that there is a laser tool mentioned for measuring the height of a tree. Is there a particular make/model that has been found to work well? How difficult will it be to obtain accurate-enough measurements? - Anything else I should know about? (I know that of course there is, but maybe I'm missing something very obvious...) The books you have cited are a good start. look for the characterisitics out lined in the book to recognize old growth versus secondary is something you can do on your own. Talking to people who can recognize old growth characteristics is another. But the best way is to visit a few old growth sites with someone who knows about them. They can show you things in person in the field that are hard to envision from a book. We us cbh - which stands for circumference breast height - it ccan be measured using a cloth tape. But remember that some of the large trees may have circumferences 10 feet around or greater so you need a tape that is long enough. cbh is measured at 4.5 feet above the base of the trunk, where its center intersects it supporting surface. Essentially that is pretty much from "Where the acorn sprouted" for most trees. The procedures for measuring trees are outlined on the ENTS website in the measuring section. There are a number of discussions on the subject there. The methodology is given an excellent treatment in the article: Tree Measuring Guidelines of the Eastern Native Tree Society, Prepared by Will Blozan, ENTS President, October 2004 found at this address: http://www.nativetreesociety.org/measure/tree_measuring_guidelines.htm They way to get accurate measurements is using the ENTS technique using a laser rangefinder and a clinometer. Laser rangefinders like we use range from $150 to $250. There are more expensive models as well. The clinometers are by Suunto and cost around $100 to 120. There are several brands of laser rangefinders used by ENTS people. Most use Bushnell or Nikon. If you decide to splurge and buy one I am sure people can give you some more specific suggestions. Ed Frank http://www.nativetreesociety.org RE: Newbie asking for advice...   Ernie Ostuno   Dec 04, 2005 17:37 PST  Hello Ron, I am sure there are plenty of interesting, and undocumented, patches of old growth remaining on the Poconos. The Nature Conservancy at Long Pond should be a good resource to find out more about the natural history of some of the forests and bogs in that area. One of the things I did when looking for old growth in central Pennsylvania was to call the state forest districts and talk to some of the forest rangers. If there were areas of what looked like old trees, which were either original growth remnants or old second growth, they could help you find it. Here's the website to get the contact info: http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/stateforests/index.aspx You want to call early in the morning, between 7 and 8 am, before they head out into the field for the day. And have the forest map ready for reference. Here's the Delaware State Forest map: http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/stateforests/delawaremap.aspx I have gone and drove/hiked around and actually found a few small stands (less than 5 acres) of old growth out in the state forests that even the rangers I spoke to were unaware of. I don't have much experience with spruce bogs, but I know that winter is actually a good time to spot areas of potential old growth stands of pine/hemlock in some of the steep sided water gaps of the ridges in central PA and I would think the same holds true for the Poconos. Hiking to them this time of year is another matter, of course. Good luck in your searches and hope to hear some of your field reports from the Poconos soon. Ernie RE: Newbie asking for advice...   Robert Leverett   Dec 05, 2005 06:23 PST  Ron,    I'll throw in my two cents worth. First, welcome aboard. Second, I would ditto everything Ed Frank has said. As a bit of added explanation, the reason most of us who own laser rangefinders have stuck with the two brands that Ed mentioned, Nikon and Bushnell, is that they have proven reliable and are affordable. Last week I called a company in California about the Simmons Laser Rangefinder. Simmons makes spotting scopes and other lens-based equipment. Their laser rangefinder model boasts accuracy under one foot. That got my attention. However, upon calling the distributor, the sales rep told me that he gets many returns for the Simmons model due to a variety of malfunctions. Lack of reliability about sums up our fears relative to other medium to low priced models. You can't go wrong with Nikon or Bushnell. I own both and highly recommend the Nikon Pro-staff 440 as a first selection.    The ENTS website is a gold mine of discussions on tree measuring. But to cut to the chase, Will Blozan's tree-measuring guide is the most complete and easiest to follow document of its kind. It is an outgrowth of earlier materials and discussions that span 10 years of research. You can find much of the discussion posted on the website, courtesy of Ed Frank's dedication.    I strongly agree with Ed that the best way to recognize OG characteristics is to visit a few sites with an expert. There are many factors to consider and no absolutes. Verbal descriptions and pictures in books help, but are not enough. There are too many shades of gray. A few trips with Ernie, Dale, or Scott in PA would be worth their weight in gold.    I had to smile at your observation: "I have never understood why people visit a forest then rush through it like they were in a race. The purpose of a hike in the woods is not to get in and out as quickly as possible, but to enjoy the hike." I once fit the category of woods athlete. I now move slowly and contemplatively. A change of focus is required to begin seeing the forest and the trees. Most people have no immediate need to make the change in focus, so the woods are a convenience to them. In urban areas where heavy concentrations of people move over the trail networks, the common disconnect is especially obvious. One of the missions of ENTS is to make forests and trees live in the minds of that part of the public that is at least somewhat tuned it. So all of us recognize the problem. In ENTS each of us hopefully becomes part of the solution.    Again, welcome aboard. Bob Re: Newbie asking for advice...   dbhg-@comcast.net   Dec 05, 2005 21:05 PST  Ron,    A few more welcoming comments. You'll soon learn, if you haven't already, that ENTS specializes in several kinds/classes of measurements and a lot of our time is devoted to perfecting them. First comes individual tree measurements.     We've focused a lot of our attention on tree height because that dimension has been most often miscalculated in the champion tree lists. Other dimensions like lateral spread greatest and average are also dealt with, but have not captured our imagination like height. On occasion we discuss limb length, but haven't devoted much attention to regularizing that dimension in our pursuits. The most complex single dimension that we go after is trunk volume. You'll read a lot about our efforts to refine volume measurements. Currently, Will Blozan, Jess Riddle, and I are concentrating on volumes.     A second class of measurements we do combines the individual tree dimensions in some kind of compromise formula that we adopt to produce an overall measure of a tree. Concepts like "largeness" and "impressiveness" creep into the assessments. A lot of subjectivity goes into the compromise tree formulas. So some of us are disinclined to spend too much time on aggregate formulas. However, the overall tree formulas have their place in the genre and are welcome in ENTS so long as what they purport to show is not misrepresented. For example, to say that a particular tree is the largest of its species because it accumulates more points on a formula that tries to capture tree size begs the question of what do we mean by biggest tree? When we apply a compromise formula, we often mean whatever is measured by our formulas. We get ourselves into a kind of circular reasoning. But it produces a competition that sparks interest in many folks, so is for a good cause.     The third class of measurements we do covers entire stands of trees or forest sites. The Rucker indexing system illustrates this direction best. The website contains definitions. As you'll eventually read, if you get hooked on tree measuring, Rucker indexing has its limitations, but so do all other stand-level assessments I have seen.     What separates ENTS from specific professions and how they may make comparable measurements? Well, ENTS is not tied to any single profession. We have foresters, forest ecologists, forest historians, dendrochronologists, arboculturists, horticulturists, geologists, meteorologists, mathematicians, photographers, etc. on the list. We have input from a variety of scientists who operate in many capacities. We stress and pursue accuracy in our methods. Bob   Home