North-Central PA old growth areas    djluth-@pennswoods.net    May 23, 2006 19:39 PDT  Tony, I've been to a number of these sites. Unless you really have a hankering for exploring lots of area to find minimal results, I'd suggest maybe visiting some different old growth Central PA sites instead. Then again, they are nice wilderness areas, it's just that big and old trees are pretty slim in the following areas: Johnson Run N.A. - nice little natural area, it's been reported to have old growth, but I didn't find anything of real stature. I barely broke 120ft for their few biggest white pines in the valley. There are some select old trees. I've been told there is dwarf old growth forest on the ridge top, I just didn't go high enough up in elevation to see it. I was looking for reported bigger stuff in the valleys. There's an old logging road that goes right down the main stream of this site that was put in somewhere in the mid to late 1800's. Lower Jerry Run N.A. - LOTS of area to explore here, just bring a good map, compass, GPS unit, sturdy hiking boots, and plenty of water. Big woods, tics, elk, and rattlesnakes. Lots of "elevation" to explore here. Old growth E. hemlock in scattered areas... old logging road will take you to the small area they left. VERY WILD. I've probably walked close to 15 miles at this site and still haven't seen it all. Interesting topography. I'm still holding out hope for some decent sized trees on the lower elevations near Sinnemahoning Creek. Bring a friend. Wykoff Run N.A. - been on the edge of it, there is supposed to be ancient old growth hemlock here but the area suffered serious wind damage a number of years ago. Can't recal if it was associated with the 1985 storms. I was told the best of it was down and only a handful of big/old hemlock were left. Quehanna Wild Area - huge area that encompasses all the above natural areas Forest H. Dutlinger N.A. - it's on my list, haven't been there yet. From the ones I've been to in central PA so far, I'd say the most impressive site was Snyder-Middleswarth N.A. Their hemlocks rival the best we have at Cook, it's just a smaller area, very steep valley. Old growth hemlock in the valleys, turns to dwarf old growth oaks on the ridgetops. Tough walking on medicine ball sized boulders. Another site to visit would be Detweiler Run N.A. This is another very wild place. Lots of old growth. No impressive heights, but many ancient small stature trees here. The path just skirts the old growth on the western side of the stream. You have to get off the path and walk parallel to the stream on the east side. It's tough going, but look for deer paths for the easiest approach. This is the best "rhodo-surfing" site I've come across so far in PA. I belly crawled through parts of it, and could only walk on top of other areas. I'd give a 10 on my PA rhodo-surfing index. I'm sure Will and Jess would chuckle at MY 10 rating compared to their sites down south. Many ancient chestnut oaks, white oaks, N. red oaks, hemlocks, and black gums here. A number of other species should reach 150 years or greater: pitch pine, yellow birch, black birch, red maple, tuliptree. I tried getting up to the eastern ridgetop, but ran out of time. It was old growth as far as I was able to get up. It just became smaller stature the higher up in elevation. VERY WILD. Supposedly the last wolf in the state was shot here. Alan Seeger N.A. is another must see. It's very close to Detweiler Run and Bear Meadows N.A. (old growth spruce/balsam fir bog - cored a black spruce here to ~217). Alan Seeger has some VERY old hemlock and black gum. Nice tulips, but small area. Very thick rhododendron understory. I'd be willing to say that the oldest hemlocks at Detweiler Run, are every bit as old as the ones that were accurately cored at Alan Seeger (~500+ years - Abrams, Orwig, et. al. data I believe). The hard part is finding a tree you can get a good core from though at Detweiler. There's got to be a number of trip reports on many of these areas already on the ENTS list, I just haven't dug back in to find them. Ernie Ostuno is my 'go-to' guy for central PA old growth areas. If he hasn't visited them all, he's probably visited a good 95% of them. I believe he was at Forest H. Dutlinger and could describe that better to you. You can't lose with any site you choose, regardless of my comments. They're all unique in their own special way. The more different old growth habitats you visit, the better you'll be able to identify it in the future. Dale RE: North-Central PA old growth areas   Anthony Kelly   May 23, 2006 22:43 PDT  Dale, Thanks for the info about those areas. I'm kind of in the mood to go tromping around in some of those really wild and romote areas even if the big tree finds turn out to be minimal. I've been hankering to get out of McConnells Mill and into a really big area. McConnells Mill is wonderful, but is somewhat of an oasis being surrounded by flat boring farmland. I've been able to explore a few more areas these past two weeks, including the flood plain where I found the 137.5 sycamore and the 142' Tulip. (Remember that I first measured them from high up on the other side of the river). I was hoping to find more giants, but didn't. I doubt that the area is old growth. It's probably just a good growing area. There was a nice silver maple with about 3 or 4 huge trunks coming out of the ground and over the river. It's not very tall, though. Back at Walnut flats, I was able to measure another one of the elms I found with Carl. I think now that they are almost surely slippery elms. Because of the thick undergrowth I had to estimate where the bottom of the tree was with the clinometer, so I probably didn't get the most accurate reading possible. I got 126.3' and 9'0"CBH. I will only put the height accuracy at +/- 2ft at this point. Next time I'll attach a white ribbon around the trunk at some height above the surrounding brush so I can get an accurate reading. I was upset to see that the 121.7' sugar maple lost about 1/2 of its crown. A huge branch of the top section came down recently.   There goes the Rucker Index, I thought. I remeasured it carefully and got 122.7', so it must not have been the highest part that came down. It appears to have put up some nice sized twigs this spring. I found two more lower 140's poplars (that makes about 8 or 9 now) and a 120.9ft beech. That's about it. As far as the Rucker goes, with the new elm and the extra 1ft for the sugar maple, it now stands at 130.62. This assumes that the elm measurement was relatively accurate. Here's the list: As of 5/13/2006 Slippery Rock Creek Gorge Rucker Index: Tulip Poplar             10'9"        146.0' (?) Ash                     6'7"         137.7' Sycamore             n/a          137.5' Bitternut(?) Hickory        5'10"        132.7' Cucumbertree             10'2"        130.3' Am Basswood             6'5"         127.1' S. Elm                      9'0"         126.3' N. Red Oak                  9'7"         123.1' E. Hemlock     n/a          122.8' Sugar Maple             8'8"         122.7' Rucker Index = 130.62 I think it is getting to the point where it is going to flatten out, unless I stumble on another walnut flats type of area with a bunch of taller trees. I kinda think this isn't going to happen. I'm still hoping for a taller Red Oak. I found one on Walnut Flats on my way out last time, but didn't have time to measure it. I haven't seen very many hemlocks that I thing will top the one you found, but I think there is still some hope there. I'm also hoping that some of the other 135+ ashes that I found will turn out to be a different species that the one on the list, which I now think might be a black ash and not a white one like I'd first thought. The leaves on them were not far enough out for me to tell. Hopefully, they will be next time. Another 135+ft tree would be a good boost for the Rucker, probably the last big one we'll see, though. I am confidient that it will eventually pass 131 and hope that it will break 132, but I doubt it will go higher than that barring some extraordinary find in a new area. I was hoping to put all of this together for a post to the ENTS list, but I'd like to wait till I get some surer measurements of the elm and a few other trees that I only have rough straight up shots of. Maybe next week. There's some really bad news for the park in general. A mining company has started work strip mining right up to the park property and the gorge's rim. It will go about 1/2 mile or more down along the rim from the Rim Road climing area clear down to Eckert Bridge. An entire waterfall will be lost. Who knows what kind of damage will result, but the EPA, nevertheless, approved the whole thing. The land that borders right on the big woods old-growth area is also for sale I noticed. If I could afford it, I would jump at the chance to buy it. Not possible, though.   I just hope that the strip miners don't get ahold of it. It would spell the end of the buffer for that area. What type of damage the loss of water drainage to the trees in the big woods would cause I shutter to think about. Depressing. I'm thinking we'd better get those trees on the map and fast. I think that keeping them a secret is probably no longer the best option. Looking forward to the 7th. Tony RE: North-Central PA old growth areas    djluth-@pennswoods.net    May 24, 2006 10:41 PDT  Tony, Super!!! McConnells Mill breaks the 130 RI mark! That's the 3rd 130 RI site for PA, and a solid 5th place in the RI standings for the Northeast. If your ~126ft slippery elm measurement stands, it could be the next tallest known for the northeast! The tallest we have right now is a 6.7ft CBH x 124.6ft specimen located in the Walnut Creek Gorge in Erie County, PA. Definitely looking forward to getting out of the office on 6/7! Dale RE: North-Central PA old growth areas    Anthony Kelly    May 24, 2006 11:34 PDT  Bob, ENTS, Oops. My last post was intended to be just a quick update to Dale. I didn't realize that it was the ENTS address in the "to:" window. No big deal. I started to write up an ENTS post last week, but thought I'd wait until I had a chance to go back to McConnells Mill and get some more accurate measurements of a lot of trees that I've recently found. There are also a few questions as to the species of certain trees, some ashes and hickories in particular, that need to be cleared up. I'm still waiting for leaves on a few trees. Most of my recent trips to the park and the Slippery Rock Creek Gorge, including one with Carl Harting a couple weeks ago, have been broad-sweep exploratory trips to new areas. I did careful double sine measurements of only the biggest trees and made just quick straight-up laser shot measurements of a lot of others. (The measurements of the trees in the Rucker Index are all double sines.) When I get back to certain trees and get proper double sine measurements and good identifications, I'll make another more thorough post. Anthony Kelly RE: North-Central PA old growth areas   Ernie Ostuno   May 26, 2006 15:37 PDT  Tony, I would estimate heights at Dutlinger N.A. weren't that great for hemlocks, with most in the 100-110 foot range. You could be the first person to actually measure heights there. All I had was a tape measure and got some girths. Johnson Run N.A. is nice for a couple reasons. First, it's easy to get to, with just a hike of a few hundred feet up a power line clearing off Route 120. Also, they have some old growth sycamores there, which are pretty rare in PA. Again, like Dale said, heights weren't that impressive, although there are quite a few fat white pine. Here's my notes for Wykoff Run: There are small pockets of old growth here. I found an area along a stream that had three old growth hemlock and one large white pine. Several other areas had large white pine, though they probably could not be counted as old growth. Big old stumps are everywhere, most of them with black burn marks on them. Stands of younger white pine and hemlock are scattered throughout the area. Nothing too impressive there as it was almost completely cutover back in the logging era from what I saw. Here's a couple suggestions for your list in additon to the ones that Dale suggested: Hemlock Trail Natural Area in Laurel Hill State Park: http://www.nativetreesociety.org/fieldtrips/penna/hemlock_trail_natural_area.htm Schall's Gap: http://www.nativetreesociety.org/fieldtrips/penna/schalls_gap.htm I plan on returning to this place this year to get a photo of the ancient hemlock which was cored to 540 years old back in 2000. As far as I know this was the oldest ring count for any currently living cored hemlock in the eastern U.S. (someone correct me if I'm wrong). It is a very easy hike as it is located right near the PSU agricultural research area at Rock Springs, PA, right off Route 45 a few miles south of State College. Ernie RE: Forest Dutlinger Natural Area, PA   Ernie Ostuno   Jun 02, 2006 23:54 PDT  Ed, Years ago I entertained the idea of using an ultra-light to fly over the ridges and identify old growth stands, but alas, technology now allows us to do the flyovers from our easychairs. Many times during the winter months I would spot a patch of evergreens on the ridges of central PA while driving through the valleys and wonder how old they were. Several times I would look at them through a pair of binoculars and see the conical tops of what appeared to be mature, if not old growth hemlocks. Only once did I actually hike up the ridge to check them out and in that case they did indeed turn out to be old growth. Check out this view of part of Potter County: http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=18&X=82&Y=1440&W=3 It's amazing at how thorough the cutting of hemlock in the stream valleys was back in the logging era through the Hammersley area, but you have to think that in an area as big as this a few stands of trees may have survived. Yet I have never seen any mention of there being old growth in all of Potter County. Let's zoom in on a couple interesting locations here: http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=18&X=167&Y=2880&W=3 There's a few dark patches here, let's go closer in: http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=18&X=668&Y=11523&W=3 Definitely intact stands of evergreens on the valley sides and near the ridge tops but is there any way to discern the age or species of these trees? Here's another interesting area: http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=18&X=161&Y=2879&W=3 Zoom in of the evergreens: http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=18&X=646&Y=11518&W=3 At least these seem like they could be observed from a car, as there are roads nearby. This seems like it would be an interesting endeavor for those with the time and inclination. Ernie   Home