<Scarlet Oak, Michigan Champion

Scarlet Oak, Michigan Champion	dougbi-@yahoo.com
	Jan 28, 2007 11:04 PST

ENTS,

I found some older digital photos of the Michigan Champion Black Walnut, Bur Oak and Scarlet Oak.

Scarlet Oak Series

The Scarlet Oak is curious, because I'm not sure I believe it is actually a Scarlet Oak. This oak happens to be growing only a very short distance from where my dad was born and raised in Hillsdale County just a few miles north of the Ohio border. He immediately knew the family when I read the address for the location of the tree. I was only able to collect a couple of acorns from this oak, but they both germinated. They grew for two years side by side with seedlings that I knew were Scarlet Oaks...as I collected the seed from southeastern Massachusetts Scarlet Oaks. The Michigan seedlings had leaves with significantly shallower sinuses and they did not turn a brilliant red in late October-early November. This makes them seem like black oak, but the parent tree did not have the kind of blocky bark that I generally associate with black oaks. Could it be a hybrid? The Michigan seedlings were nearly twice as tall as the Massachusetts seedlings after two years.

Doug

Back to Doug on Tree Identity	Beth Koebel
	Jan 28, 2007 18:57 PST

Doug,

Since both Scarlet and Black oaks are members of the
red oak group they can hybridize. I also like to
throw in another possible id--Northern Pin Oak/Hill's
Oak.

If at possible, it would easier to id the tree if I
and other ENTS could see pics of the leaves, buds,
bark, overall shape and acorns from the original tree.

Beth

Re: Back to Doug on Tree Identity again	Beth Koebel
	Jan 28, 2007 21:51 PST

Doug,

The hybrids that can occur are Quercus x fontana
Laughlin (Q. coccinea x velutina)[this is the only
hybrid of scarlet oak in your area. the other one is
with southern red oak], Quercus x palaeolithicola
Trel. (Q. ellpsoidalis x velutina)[this is the only
hybrid with northern pin oak/hill's oak], Quercus x
discreta Laughlin (Q. schumardii x velutina), Quercus
x hawkinsiae Sudw. (Q. rubra x velutina), Quercus x
leana Nutt, (Q. imbricaria x velutina), and Quercus x
vaga Palmer & Steyerm (Q. palustris x velutina).

As you can see from these hybrids that Black oak tends
to interbred with just about any other species of the
red oak group.

Beth

Re: Champion Michigan Scarlet Oak	Steve Galehouse
	Jan 29, 2007 19:32 PST

That's a very interesting oak, as far as the habit and bark--the foliage
looks like a typical black oak, with a nice gloss to the leaves, but the
bark is very unusual--not like black, red, pin or scarlet oak (as I know
them). Northern pin oak, or jack oak, just enters the range in this
area, so perhaps that is what it is, but I've not seen one to confirm.
Beautiful tree though, shaped like a banyan in S. Florida.

Steve

Re: Champion Michigan Scarlet Oak	Beth Koebel
	Jan 30, 2007 07:23 PST

Doug and everyone,

After looking at the photos I would have to agree with
you (Doug), the leaves do look like black oak and the
bark seems too deeply furrowed for a black oak. The
next time that you are there see if there is an orange
inner bark-->black oak or possibly a black oak hybrid
(I'm not sure about the inner bark of a black oak
hybrid though). The Illinois state champ black oak as
furrows but not as deep as the one in the photo. I'm
pretty sure that it is not a pure scarlet oak.

Beth

Re: Champion Michigan Scarlet Oak	MICHAEL DAVIE
	Jan 30, 2007 18:12 PST

Hello-
It is referenced in this thread as scarlet oak, though it says shumard on
the website and the original email. It actually does look like a shumard to
me, at least more so than black, scarlet, northern red, or pin. That would
be way north for it, though. It certainly could be a hybrid of some kind. It
may help to see an acorn or two.
MD

RE: Back to Doug on Tree Identity	Doug Bidlack
	Jan 30, 2007 22:15 PST

Beth,

I thought of Northern Pin Oak too. I think I am familiar with this
species. In southwestern Oakland County, MI where I grew up, I thought
the really dominant trees were black oak, white oak and pignut hickory.
Sandy loam soils of 5.5 to 6.5 pH. Then I noticed that there seemed to
be two kinds of black oaks. Some had leaves with relatively shallow
sinuses and others had leaves with deep sinuses. One tree, at the edge
of my parent's property, was an especially beautiful example of the type
that had leaves with deep sinuses. This tree seemed far to elegant to
be a black oak. Too much like 007 in a suit rather than an old man that
hadn't shaved in a week. After trying to match the leaves and tree form
to book pictures and words, I decided that the tree was a Scarlet Oak.
I left it at that for a while, but something always bothered me. Why
didn't the leaves turn scarlet in the fall? They just turned a brownish
color. Not even a hint of color. Now that I live in the land of
Scarlet Oak, and every one of them seems to turn some shade of red, I
really think that beautiful oak and all it's kin are Northern Pin Oak.

To me, the "Michigan Champion Scarlet Oak" looks too heavily limbed and
a bit too shabby to be a Scarlet or a Northern Pin Oak. The leaves also
do not have the really deep sinuses either...but I really don't know.
That site in Hillsdale County is also not as dry. Not near as much sand
and gravel and definitely more silt/clay in the soil. There are plenty
of black walnuts in the area, some tuliptrees and the largest bit of
woods are dominated by sugar maple, beech and northern red oak.

Doug

RE: Champion Michigan Scarlet Oak	Doug Bidlack
	Jan 30, 2007 22:19 PST

Beth,

the orange inner bark test always seems like a great idea, but I always
forget to do it. I need to test some trees that are definitely black
oak first so I know what to look for.

Doug

RE: Champion Michigan Scarlet Oak	Doug Bidlack
	Jan 30, 2007 22:50 PST

Michael,

the pictures are of a tree that is supposed to be the Michigan Champion
Scartlet Oak.

I think I may have found some Shumard Oaks in Oakland County, MI and I
will send Ed a couple of pictures of one tree tonight. According to
Barnes and Wagner in their book 'Michigan Trees', Shumard Oak is known
in MI from Monroe, Wayne, Jackson and Kalamazoo Counties. I really
don't know this oak very well at all, but only a couple months before I
saw the Michigan oak that may be a Shumard, I saw a very large Shumard
Oak in central Indiana. The buttressed trunk really stood out for me.

I collected two acorns from the 'Michigan Champion Scarlet Oak'. I
think they were relatively small, because I remember immediately ruling
out Northern Red Oak. That's all I remember about the acorns.

Doug

RE: Another bark appearance question/comment	Doug Bidlack
	Jan 30, 2007 23:02 PST

Steve,

I'm so glad you brought this up. Here in Massachusetts your photo is
exactly like what I normally see here. However, in southeastern MI I am
used to seeing black oak bark that is very blocky, almost like alligator
hide or something. I wonder if this has to do with the drier conditions
in MI where I always saw this tree. I noticed that when I have seen the
blocky black oak bark in MA it has always seemed to be on really dry
ridges. I hope I'm not completely making this up.

Doug

Steve Galehouse wrote:

The current discussion regarding the Michigan scarlet oak champion made
me wonder how much regional variability there is concerning what is
"typical" for a species---does a black oak (or other tree species) have
the same bark characteristics in Georgia as it does in Ohio? I've
included a photo of a northern red oak on the left, and black oak on the

right, showing what I consider to be typical for bark appearance for
each species. Both trees are about 30" diameter. Would these trees be
considered typical for their species in other states?

http://thumbsnap.com/v/gPNAbkbO.jpg

Steve

RE: Champion Michigan Scarlet Oak	wad-@comcast.net
	Jan 31, 2007 05:58 PST

Doug, ENTS

It is funny. Dale and I have been having a similar discussion off list about the current PA state champion scarlet oak. Dale thinks it is a red oak, I thought it might be shumard or black. Will thought it was red oak also. Dale is to try and get a sample for me to send to Morris Arboretum for analysis in spring. Another idea may be bender oak? Before Little's list was updated in the 70's bender oak was an accepted species. It is a hybrid of red and scarlet oaks. We had the national champ here in PA before the list of accepted trees was changed. Scarlet oak acorns have concentric circles around the point of the acorn, and they are much smaller than red and black oak acorns.

Scott

RE: Michigan Champ Scarlet Oak?	Doug Bidlack
	Feb 02, 2007 06:15 PST

Beth,

I don't live in Michigan anymore. I live in Dighton, Massachusetts. I
do go back to visit my parents and to do tree stuff though. I will be
flying to Michigan on thursday the 15th and I'll be flying back late on
monday the 19th.

I didn't finish measuring all the trees on my parent's property around
Christmas. I have around 70 or so to measure and most of them are over
50 feet. I'm hoping that I'll be able to use my rangefinder and
clinometer well enough to accomplish this. If not, I'll just finish off
some of the smaller trees, measure the red pines as they are very easy
to climb and then do some pruning. I was planning on doing this Friday
and Saturday and then maybe going out to look at some Michigan state
champion trees. Since I've become interested in Shumard Oak I thought I
might go out to see this champ on Belle Isle in the Detroit River. It
also happens to be growing near the state champion Pumpkin Ash. I've
never seen (or at least recognized) a Pumpkin Ash...I hope it's not dead
due to emerald ash borers. I'm also hoping to find the Shumard Oak so
that I can collect acorns to plant. I also thought that I might check
out the Michigan champion Shingle Oak.

If you can visit during the weekend that I'll be in Michigan I'd be
happy to change my plans. Do you have the address for the Scarlet Oak?

One more thing I wanted to mention about the Michigan Scarlet Oak. This
tree is supposed to be 243" in circumferance, 126' in spread and 117' in
height. Yeah, right! This tree isn't close to 117' in height. Here's
the kicker. These dimensions give the tree 391.5 points. The current
champ is in Kentucky and has 348 points. I believe the Michigan tree
was once considered the National Champ (there is even a plaque next to
the tree stating this). So, did someone decide the Michigan tree did
not measure up or did they decide that it wasn't a Scarlet Oak?
Probably both.

Doug

Champion Michigan Scarlet Oak and Question for Scott	Doug Bidlack
	Feb 02, 2007 08:29 PST

Scott, ENTS

Funny is right. I planted seed collected from 4 trees that I thought
might be Scarlet Oak. I planted these in a 3' by 3' area in my parent's
backyard in Michigan. The 2 acorns I collected from the Michigan
Champion Scarlet Oak were planted in the south of this 3' by 3' plot.
Acorns collected from two trees that I was quite certain were Scarlet
Oaks were planted to the East and West in the plot. These Scarlet Oaks
were in Massasoit State Park here in southeastern Massachusetts and the
two trees I collected from had good form and great fall color. The
fourth tree that I collected from was also from southeastern
Massachusetts...Taunton. It looked a little odd. Very much like the
'Michigan Champ Scarlet Oak'. But it was really big and it had great
form. I don't remember the leaves very well because they were too far
from the ground. Anyway, when the seedlings came up the two that I was
sure were Scarlet Oaks had leaves with very deep sinuses and beautiful
red leaves in early November. The seedlings from the Michigan tree had
leaves with relatively shallow sinuses and they did not turn red. The
strange Taunton seedlings? Well, they looked just like the Michigan
seedlings! Shallow leaf sinuses and no red fall color. That Taunton
tree has since been cut down by the owners, but there is an even bigger
one which looks very similar and it's just down the street. I have
often wanted to measure this tree because of it's great size, but I have
also always wondered what it was. Maybe I'll get some pictures and
measure it. I would love to see what the PA Champion Scarlet Oak looks
like.

As for acorn size, I had always thought of black oak as relatively
small, but that could be due to my confusion with northern pin oak. I
looked up acorn weights in Howard Miller and Samuel Lamb's 'Oaks of
North America'. I also checked on acorn sizes in Barnes and Wagner's
'Michigan Trees'. What follows is the acorn weights from the first book
followed by length x diameter (sometimes just length) measurements from
the second book.

Shumard Oak 4.55g   14-30mm x 10-20mm
Northern Red Oak 3.64g   20-30mm x 13-20mm
Scarlet Oak   1.92g   13-22mm
Black Oak   1.85g   12-18mm
Northern Pin Oak   1.85g   12-18mm

The trouble with these measurements is that they don't give any info on
the origin of the parent trees. There is tremendous variation in acorn
size, among other things, within each oak species.

I have recently been weighing the acorns that I collect from trees
around the eastern US. I've been most interested in Bur, White, and
Swamp White Oaks. Below is what Miller and Lamb have recorded compared
to what I found just last year.

Swamp White Oak   3.85g (3.40g for PA Champ to 4.40g for KY Champ)
White Oak   3.85g   (2.70g for IN Champ to 7.10g for CT Champ)
Bur Oak   6.06g   (2.20g for VT Champ to 5.40g for MI Champ)

Bur Oak are well known for their amazing variability regarding acorn
size. Northeastern acorns are smallest and southwestern acorns are
largest. Oikos Tree Crops lists acorns as large as 2 ounces (56g or so)
from trees from the southwestern portion of their range. Wow!

I am really interested in variation within a species and oaks are great
subjects because of their often great range and ability to hybridize so
freely.

Scott, my question for you has to do with the PA Champion Bur Oak. I
collected seed from this beautiful tree a few years ago. It seemed
kinda out of place, especially after I later looked at range maps for
Bur Oak. Then, around Christmas, I think, you posted something about
Bur Oaks having been commonly planted in southeastern PA at one time.
Do you think the current champ was planted? I hope not. I really am
hoping this tree really is from PA, but I have to ask. I definately
want seed from a true Pennsylvania tree.

Doug

Re: Champion Michigan Scarlet Oak and Question for Scott	wad-@comcast.net
	Feb 02, 2007 09:05 PST

Doug

Funny thing. A guy from Erie county, who tracks the counties big trees, told me that the Scarlet oak was cut down almost ten years ago, and the cemetery people thought this other tree was it. Dale and I are guessing it is a red oak now.

Which bur oak are you talking about? I am guessing it is the one in Millersville? I believe that to be a planted tree. Due to the location in reference to the 1700's home, I think it was planted. See the picture in the link. Bur oak was a popular collector/nursery tree in the 1700's to early 1800's. All of the trees I have measured in Pa are coincidentally growing near a colonial home. Sorry! http://www.pabigtrees.com/trees/species/quercus_oak.htm

Scott

RE: Champion Michigan Scarlet Oak and Question for Scott	Doug Bidlack
	Feb 02, 2007 09:34 PST

Scott,

Bummer on both counts.

The Millersville Bur Oak was the one. I was so happy about PA, because
it was the first state where I was able to collect seed from the
champion Bur, White (McClellandtown) and Swamp White Oaks (Bald Eagle
State Park). I planted the Swamp White Oak acorns just last fall. I
only found 5 acorns after 2 hours of searching.

I guess I'll just have to deal with the fact that the Bur Oak may not be
from PA. Oh well.

Doug

RE: Champion Michigan Scarlet Oak and Question for Scott	wad-@comcast.net
	Feb 02, 2007 09:43 PST

Doug

In "The vascular Flora of Pennsylvania" Ann Rhoads lists several counties with wild collected herbarium specimens. The Millersville tree probably is a PA grown tree, just not where it is growing now. I doubt they shipped trees very far back then, unless it was collected as an acorn. Check the website in the link I gave you, as we have some new champs in the oak categories.

RE: Champion Michigan Scarlet Oak and Question for Scott	Doug Bidlack
	Feb 02, 2007 10:45 PST

Scott,

that's good to know. I guess I was hoping that the trees were of local
stock.

A few years ago I visited Mr. Budash in Swoyersville because he had the
PA champion swamp white oak at the time. It wasn't producing acorns but
he wouldn't let me go so easily. I ended up in his house and talking
for quite some time. He said that much of the tree was covered from
fill and that he argued that this should be taken into account for
measurement purposes. I guess he even produced documents to back up his
claim. Anyway, I noticed that the new measurements for this tree are
much less in terms of circumferance, but actually more for height.

He also told me there was a Bidlack street in Swoyersville and if I was
related. I only knew of a story that took place in the Wyoming Valley
of PA and he let me know that Swoyersville was in the Wyoming Valley.
All I know is that most of the Bidlacks in that area were wiped out by
the British. One was a captain in George Washingtons Army and he was
allowed to go with some other men to defend their families. He was
killed. I also understand that many were burned in a church. I think
it is a fairly famous incident.

Doug

The way to MI Scarlet Oak	Doug Bidlack
	Feb 02, 2007 11:25 PST

Beth

If you go East on North Adams Road out of Jonesville the tree will be a
couple miles down the road on the North (left) side of the road just
before you reach Half Moon Road. In fact, my dad says it is even a
little before Half Moon Lake which is a truly tiny lake on the North
side of North Adams Road. The tree is practically on the road so you
can't miss it. Good luck!

Doug

Hybrids	beth koebel
	Feb 05, 2007 22:42 PST

Scott and the rest of the ENTS,

First, thank you Scott on letting me know that bender oak is not listed
in Little's list. I had a feeling that it wasn't. But that got me
thinking. Why are some naturally occurring hybrids recognized and some
others are not? Example Quercus X fontana (Q. coccinea x velutina) is
recognized but Quercus X benderi (Q. coccinea x rubra) is not.

I am going to ask the International Oak Society also.

Beth

-----------------------------------------------------------

Scott Wade wrote: Feb 04, 2007:

Beth

The bender oak is not an accepted species in the Little checklist of native and naturalized trees.

Scott Wade

Re: Hybrids	wad-@comcast.net
	Feb 06, 2007 06:00 PST

Beth

We have the former National champion Bender oak in Philadelphia. It was removed from the list when Little's update in1970 something came out. I would love to get it back on. It is huge!

Scott

RE: Champion Michigan Scarlet Oak and Question for Scott	wad-@comcast.net
	Feb 02, 2007 11:37 PST

Doug

Sometimes the conversation is the best part. I hope they didn't fill in around that tree too much. If it isn't producing acorns, that worries me. It can take over 40 years for a big tree to die from soil girdling.

I was looking for a 325 year old white oak the other day that was listed in the 1982 book called "Penn's Woods" The book has the worst directions for some of the trees. I stopped at an estate called Oak Hill thinking it might be there. The owner never heard of it, but had me in the house to talk and look around. The next day he called me to say he had found the tree I was looking for on a neighboring estate. I came out the next day to see it and the whole neighborhood had assembled to watch me document the tree. It was awesome. The Oak is 18.4'cbh x 109' tall x 135' spd.

I am familiar with the Wyoming Valley Massacre. I think it was Connecticut that claimed that part of Pa at the time. I also enjoy Pennsylvania history as a hobby. I too had relatives that served in the Revolution from several family lines.

Scott

RE: Champion Michigan Scarlet Oak and Question for Scott	Doug Bidlack
	Feb 02, 2007 12:52 PST

Scott

I think the Swamp White Oak in Swoyersville is doing remarkably well.
Mr. Budash said it often produces acorns and sometimes he digs up small
plants to give to friends and family. He is quite proud of this tree.
Much of the area of the roots is now under driveway blacktop and
immediately around the base of the tree there are bricks. He gave me a
photo and he wrote on the back 10/20/03. That must have been when I was
there.

I know the Bidlacks moved to the Wyoming Valley from Connecticut. I
guess there was practically a war between the people from CT and those
from PA. The funny part for me is the area in CT from which the
Bidlacks moved just happens to be where my wife grew up.

Doug

Re: Hybrids	wad-@comcast.net
	Feb 06, 2007 06:00 PST

Beth

We have the former National champion Bender oak in Philadelphia. It was removed from the list when Little's update in1970 something came out. I would love to get it back on. It is huge!

Scott

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