White Oak Cookies

Historic Tree Cookies	Scott Bolotin
	Oct. 10, 2007

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TOPIC: white oak cookies
http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees/browse_thread/thread/3e58646769927f90?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 10 2007 2:25 pm
From: "Laurie and Scott Bolotin"

I have been working on a carpentry project for several years that is using recycled white oak timbers from barns dismantled in ohio and pennsylvania. A lot of the cut off chunks end up in my woodstove. The trees were hewn in the mid 1800's most likely. The tightness of the rings is incredible. Some of the ten inch by ten inch pieces have yielded 230 years from the center out to the corner. A magnifying glass is needed to count them.

Scott Bolotin

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 10 2007 3:00 pm
From: "Edward Frank"

Scott,

That is very interesting. I wonder if someone might be interested in trying to do a cross-dated chronology from some of the white oak cookies. If the trees date from 1850, and have 230 rings, that would push their birth to around 1620. looking at the Tree Ring Chronologies in the International Tree Ring Database - there were only four chronoogies that extended before 1600 - and three of those represent individual trees. I have copied some of this info and links for you below.

Edward Frank

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Eastern Old List: http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~adk/oldlisteast/

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~adk/oldlisteast/Spp/QUAL.html

Species Age Type ID Location Collector(s), Dater(s), Reference(s)

Quercus alba 464 XD 085141 Buena Vista, VA E. Cook; N. Pederson; Pederson, 2005
Quercus alba 440 RC -- PA M. Abrams
Quercus alba 407 XD Warren County Iowa Duvick and Blasing 1983

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http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/treering.html

ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/treering/measurements/correlation-stats/mo044.txt

ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/treering/measurements/correlation-stats/mi005.txt

ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/treering/measurements/correlation-stats/ia025.txt

ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/treering/measurements/correlation-stats/va011.txt

ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/treering/measurements/correlation-stats/va017.txt

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ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/treering/measurements/correlation-stats/mo044.txt

Chronology file name : MO044.CRN
Measurement file name : MO044.RWL
Date checked : 23MAR05
Checked by : H. ADAMS AND J. LUKAS
Beginning year : 1588
Ending year : 1992
Principal investigators: R.Guyette
Site name : Current River Natural Area
Site location : Missouri
Species information : QUAL WHITE OAK
Latitude : 3715
Longitude : -09116
Elevation : 240M

Series intercorrelation: 0.589
Avg mean sensitivity : 0.218
Avg standard deviation : 0.475
Avg autocorrelation : 0.688
Number dated series : 99
Segment length tested : 50

Number problem segments: 49
Pct problem segments : 5.23

ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/treering/measurements/correlation-stats/mi005.txt

Chronology file name : MI005.CRN
Measurement file name : MI005.RWL
Date checked : 12DEC94
Technician's name : MARIETTE SEKLECKI
Supervisor's name : HENRI D. GRISSINO-MAYER
Beginning year : 1581
Ending year : 1983
Principal investigators: ED COOK
Site name : CRANBROOK INSTITUTE
Site location : MICHIGAN, USA
Species information : QUAL WHITE OAK
Latitude : 4240N
Longitude : 8325W
Elevation : N/A M
Series intercorrelation: 0.577
Avg mean sensitivity : 0.186
Avg standard deviation : 0.506
Avg autocorrelation : 0.770
Number dated series : 24
Segment length tested : 50
Number problem segments: 14
Pct problem segments : 5.49

Are there obvious misdated series? NO
Number possible misdated series : N/A
Percent misdated series : 0.00

ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/treering/measurements/correlation-stats/ia025.txt

Chronology file name : IA025.CRN
Measurement file name : IA025.RWL
Date checked : 16DEC94
Technician's name : MARIETTE SEKLECKI
Supervisor's name : HENRI D. GRISSINO-MAYER
Beginning year : 1574
Ending year : 1980
Principal investigators: DANIEL N. DUVICK
Site name : LAKE AHQUABI STATE PARK
Site location : IOWA, USA
Species information : QUAL WHITE OAK
Latitude : 4117N
Longitude : 9335W
Elevation : 275 M
Series intercorrelation: 0.735
Avg mean sensitivity : 0.234
Avg standard deviation : 0.598
Avg autocorrelation : 0.712
Number dated series : 63
Segment length tested : 50
Number problem segments: 7
Pct problem segments : 1.38

Are there obvious misdated series? NO
Number possible misdated series : N/A
Percent misdated series : 0.00

ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/treering/measurements/correlation-stats/va011.txt

Chronology file name : VA011.CRN
Measurement file name : VA011.RWL
Date checked : 09DEC94
Technician's name : MARIETTE SEKLECKI
Supervisor's name : HENRI D. GRISSINO-MAYER
Beginning year : 1552
Ending year : 1983
Principal investigators: ED COOK
Site name : MOUNTAIN LAKE
Site location : VIRGINIA, USA
Species information : QUAL WHITE OAK
Latitude : 3723N
Longitude : 8030W
Elevation : N/A M
Series intercorrelation: 0.609
Avg mean sensitivity : 0.205
Avg standard deviation : 0.239
Avg autocorrelation : 0.653
Number dated series : 26
Segment length tested : 50
Number problem segments: 13
Pct problem segments : 4.47

Are there obvious misdated series? NO
Number possible misdated series : N/A
Percent misdated series : 0.00

ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/treering/measurements/correlation-stats/va017.txt

Chronology file name : VA017.CRN
Measurement file name : VA017.RWL
Date checked : 09DEC94
Technician's name : MARIETTE SEKLECKI
Supervisor's name : HENRI D. GRISSINO-MAYER
Beginning year : 1569
Ending year : 1982
Principal investigators: ED COOK
Site name : PATTY'S OAKS, BLUE RIDGE PARKWAY
Site location : VIRGINIA, USA
Species information : QUAL WHITE OAK
Latitude : 3755N
Longitude : 7948W
Elevation : N/A M
Series intercorrelation: 0.526
Avg mean sensitivity : 0.181
Avg standard deviation : 0.314
Avg autocorrelation : 0.760
Number dated series : 23
Segment length tested : 50
Number problem segments: 18
Pct problem segments : 6.87

Are there obvious misdated series? NO
Number possible misdated series : N/A
Percent misdated series : 0.00

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TOPIC: Fw: [ENTS] white oak cookies
http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees/browse_thread/thread/4d68cd7d6b262abc?hl=en
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== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Oct 11 2007 8:25 am
From: Carol Griggs
To: ITRDBFOR@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ENTS] white oak cookies

Dear Scott and the forum,

We now have oak samples from two western NY historic buildings whose rings date back into the 1500s. We'd also be very interested in cookies from those white oaks.

Cheers,
Carol Griggs

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Carol Griggs
Cornell Tree-Ring Laboratory
Pleistocene to Present NE North American Dendrochronology
B48 Goldwin Smith Hall
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Oct 11 2007 8:28 am
From: David M. Lawrence
To: ITRDBFOR@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [ENTS] white oak cookies

I'd be interested, and I'm near enough to Buena Vista to arrange to pick them up, but where was the original message posted?

Dave
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David M. Lawrence
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== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Oct 11 2007 8:28 am
From: David M. Lawrence
To: ITRDBFOR@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: [ENTS] white oak cookies

Oops. I see that Neil's chronology was from Buena Vista, not the person who originally posted about the cross-sections. I'd still be interested, though.

Dave
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David M. Lawrence
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== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Oct 11 2007 8:29 am
From: "Edward Frank"

Dave

The original message was posted to the listserv for the Eastern Native Tree Society. I am the webmaster for their website. I will forward your note to Scott Bolotin and you can talk to him directly. (the thread started out talking about a staghorn sumac cookie I collected out of curiosity)

Ed Frank

Scott - here is someone interested in white oak cookies.....

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TOPIC: historic 'cookies'
http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees/browse_thread/thread/466eb250e3656516?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Oct 11 2007 7:03 am
From: "Neil Pederson"

Hi All,

The email yesterday from Scott and the white oak cookies he uses from
building restoration project brings up an important activity that ENTS
members can perform in helping ecological and climatological research: save
crossections of those beams if at all possible!

Out west and in semi-arid to arid environments like Mongolia, dead wood does
not decay rapidly; I've been a part of a project where some samples sat on
the ground for several centuries. In the bristlecone pine forests, dead wood
can sit for many millennia. Dendrochornologists go out and collect those
samples and build records of growth, environmental and climatological change
from these records. It was from such records that the C14 record was
calibrated!

In environments with higher moisture, dead wood preservation is more
limited: we either get lucky that some trees die & fall into lakes, streams
swamps or bogs and are preserved or are preserved in historic buildings. In
Europe, there is a huge 'scientific industry' based on the wood from old
buildings. Also in Europe, they have harvested oak from bogs and built a
chronology that is over 8000 yrs long.

Here in eastern NA, we are in the middle of those two landscapes - it is
humid and most wood doesn't last long [though there are exceptions] and
historic buildings only go back 200-400 yrs. So, any samples that can be
saved from historic buildings or old trees are extremely important. Ed Cook,
Dave Stahle and others have many tree ring chronologies that go back well
beyond the max age of oak. From these samples not only is the chronology
lengthened, but replication is increased in the 1500s & 1600s.

With collaborators in Lexington, we are hoping to start a Xylarium from such
samples. We do not have an immediate use for the samples, but as sample
depth increases, we will find more uses from this material. Who knows what
people in the future can learn from these samples? Ryan McEwan of U of
Kentucky has already built evidence that the Bluegrass region was FORESTED
prior to European settlement [which is/will drive some people crazy].

So, if you find yourself luck enough to come across similar material as the
kind Scott described, if you can, slice off a small cookie, 1-2" wide, from
that particular sample. Contact me or your local friendly
dendrochronologist. We can provide a good home for such samples or recommend
someone who'd love such material. Orphan cookies break our hearts.

thanks!

neil

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Oct 11 2007 7:35 am
From: wades@comcast.net

Neil

I was contacted by a local person recently. He has a cookie from a
historic white ash tha came down in 1987 He has offered it to me.
The tree was supposed to be 250 years old in 1982. The section is
from above the cavity that was in the base. I hope to count the rings
and maybe make a table top out of it. I'll report what I find.

We recently pruned a limb off our copper beech from about 15 feet up.
It contained 112 rings.

I will see if the farm where I grew up can spare a piece of timber
from the barn. It is a Penn Grant farm. The barn was built in the
1700's. I can probably find out what year, as the same family owns
the property as when they got it from William Penn.

Scott

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