ENTS,

I have been looking at the ENTS website tonight looking for information on a particular species of tree.  We have a compilation of sorts made by Colby Rucker in 2004.  But the rest of the information is spread across dozens or hundreds of trip reports.  Is anyone keeping a tabulation of this information?  The short answer is NO.  Dale Luthringer is compiling data for Pennsylvania.  Bob Leverett is doing it for MA and some New England Sites.  Others are doing it for areas of their own interest, but there is not a comprehensive listing or database of our measurements.

The goal of ENTS for this coming year needs to be to develop a web-based interface whereby people doing tree measurements can enter their findings into an online form for compilation incorporation into such a comprehensive database for the group.  I would think this form would need to be monitored and approved by one of the officers prior to incorporation, but each person would be responsible for entering their findings.  

We can discuss the format, but this is what needs to be done.  For example it would be good if the site location, date, and measurer information could be entered one time for a single batch of measurements.  

Ed Frank  

Ed,

   I agree completely. An online database is the answer to keeping the data. I have a large Access database and can export from it in several formats, so I'll be able to supply lots of measurements. The key is to keep it simple enough of an input format that will attract users. We need to discuss the input format.

Bob

http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees/browse_thread/thread/0bf9502b755b35fe?hl=en

Bob,

A couple years ago John Eicholz and I were talking about this idea, but that was about as far as we got.These are my thoughts on what should be included:

DATA FORM FORMAT

Ideally the typed data should be persistent, so that when something is typed into the form, they have the option of selecting what was previously typed or to type something new.  This would facilitate reporting multiple measurements form the same site.

1) Common Name
2) Species/Scientific Name

(On the USDA site the database can be searched either by common name or species name. It would be nice if you could type in a common name and be able to select from a listing of scientific names.  If you typed in a scientific name it would auto fill in the common name)

3) Location - State  (two letter text box)
4) Location - County  (twenty letter text box)
5) Location -other

(Location other would be site name, something like GSMNP Bradley Fork, Street Address, some cemetery, etc. 40 characters)

6) Tree Name (twenty letter text box)

(If the tree has some historical name or has been given a name. Field could be left blank.)

7) Height  (feet and tenths)

8) Girth (inches)

(It would be great if either feet and inches, or feet and tenths would be auto converted to just inches)

9) Methodology laser/clinometer, Pole, climb w/tape drop, Other

(This would-be a pull down menu. If other was selected, this would open a dialogue box for an explanation.  If for example a pole was used to mark the base of the tree, but the height was determined otherwise by laser/clinometer it would still be laser clinometer method.

10) Measurer or measurers -

(Spaces for up to three names in last name, first initial format)

11) Date of Measurement  (yyyy-mm-dd)

13) Other - miscellaneous or optional information if applicable
        a) GPS location  (degrees and decimal minutes for both latitude and longitude.        
        b) Elevation (feet)
        c)  Photos - yes or no
        d) Trip report sent to list? - yes or no
        e) Comment box

(This would be a pull down menu that would open the appropriate data field.  For the GPS location auto conversion from other formats would be great or maybe a pull down to select GPS data format.  Comment box may include notes about tree health, location comments, setting, age estimates, age dates, whatever else might be relevant - up to 1000 letters)

Ed Frank

Bob,

The form format I sent is just a starting point for tweaking by you and others. I would like to see this idea  implemented sooner than later and not just trail off ..

With the Other comment field at the end we can add various types of miscellaneous data that is not normally collected.  For example a field could be added to note the native status of the tree.  The default unless this field was selected would be a native species growing naturally.  The other options might be native to region but planted, exotic planted, and exotic naturalized.  We would need to decide what to include here.  Things can always be added later, but it would be better to have it all down now as much as we can.

Under the girth field could be a series of pull downs for multitrunk trees with fields like measurements of each individual trunk, number of trunks, girth of merged trunks and number of trunks included.

Perhaps there should be a comment box under girth for girths measured at non-standard heights.  Lets brainstorm now and see what we can do.

Ed

Jeff,

Drop down menus for states would be workable, but really I don't like them.  People who are from states nearer the bottom of the list find it easier to type in the two letter code than select from a menu. Counties, again the same note as above.  Also consider there are 68 counties in PA, with fifty states DC,  and Canada, that would be many names that would need to be incorporated into a drop down menu system and I don't see that it would gain much over just having a field for typing in the name.

Would it be self maintaining?  Mostly it would be.  I would like to see an option that the data entered be put "on hold" pending approval by an ENTS officer or designate so that junk data could be kept out of the database.  But each person would enter their own data.

Whatever ideas you have post to the list for discussion.  My ideas and opinions certainly are not the last word on anything and I am sure there are points I have missed.

Ed

Ed-
This looks like a thoughtful start.  I'd only add that GPS data should include the projection/datum collected in, as that heavily influences accuracy of coordinates. I'd suggest that everybody's GPS be standardized to your GIS base coverage...Gary B could get you that.

-Don Bertolette

Ed and others,

    As one who has designed and redesigned and redesigned .... ..tree databases, I now approach the challenge humbly and somewhat differently. As a general observation, I think t he simpler, the better. I expect that we all agree that t here are some key items of information that need to accompany each submission and then there are additional items. Organizing a web-based input form to make it simple to hit the key items and then be able to go back later and fill in others as desired is a must, otherwise users will see the process as too involved.  

     From my experience, a t the simplest we need fields for the following information

        SPECIES ID

             Common name

            Scientific name *

         TREE NAME

         LOCATION  

             Country  *

             State or province, *

             County or township,

             Site, *

              Subsite

             Geographical coordinates 

         SITE OWNERSHIP

          DIMENSIONS   

              Height (ft) *

                  Methodology

                      Measurement method (Sine top-Sine bottom, etc.) *

                       Choose one *

                          Single measurement

                          Selection from a set

                          A verage  of a set

                  Laser brand *

                  Clinomter brand *

              CBH (ft) *

              CRH  (girth at root collar height) (ft)

              Max crown spread (ft)

              Max limb length (ft)

              Avg crown spread (ft)

                  Method  

              Trunk volume (ft^3)

                  Method

              FORM *

                 Single tree

                     Number of trunks

                  Fusion

                     Number of trunks

              DATE OF MEASUREMENT *

              MEASURERS  *

              CONDITION

              AGE CLASS

               TERRAIN TYPE (Need to establish some classes)

              COMMENTS

    I've found the above kinds of information to be needed for reports, comparisons, analysis, etc. over the years. The best ways to present these items   on an input form can be debated. Also, the asterisked items should be required input.

Bob 

Bob,

I think all our various ideals can be reconciled. Country - GOOD     You might have a better feel about the detail of site location.  You broke down the category into site, subsite, etc, while I just had a comment box. Ownership - Good.  Scott for example lists this in his Big Tree website. I am curious why you want to collect clinometer and laser information?   Root collar girth - OK?  There should be someplace to indicate if the girth was taken at a non-standard height.  I did forget the spread information in my initial list. Volume should be added since we are moving in that direction.  These last categories are what I envisioned as a pull down for miscellaneous information input.  

I would really like to see more attention paid to multitrunk trees.  That is why I thought a pull down form/menu with more multiform data could be included.  In that way it would not even show up for most people and make the form look less complex.  I would like to see a place to indicate if a trip report had been submitted to the ENTS list and the date.  I would like to see if photos had been taken. That way if the material is archived the report for that particular measurement set could be located and referenced.  

Now that you are focused on this concept - I expect you will have the entire thing complete inside of a week, certainly before Congaree?

Ed

Don't forget Don's mention of GPS datum whenever coordinates are entered.  Once I was hiking with Lee in the Porkies with topo maps on NAD27 and my GPS set to NAD83 after working with other maps in that datum.  Nothing made sense as we hiked trying to follow a predetermined route on the map but seemed several hundred yards off course.  Eventually we gave up on the GPS and went to instinctual hiking with a compass and it all worked itself out.  I didn't realize the datum error until after we were done hiking.

Sorry, Don.  I wish more were interested in taking advantage of Lidar data on the Congaree trip.  We had earlier threads on it here discussing how it was used to find some monster tree in the Pacific, either New Zealand or New Guinea, that stood out as a significant emergent and the measured height ended up being really close to that in the Lidar data.  Maybe no one really knows how to use the data, ie. software tools, or access is difficult?  

Paul Jost

Ed,

   The identification of laser and clinometer is ancillary information of the type we might find useful at a later date. It's not extremely important, but it might be useful for us to document what equipment we use. Not a priority.

Bob

Beth-
I think that Gary Beluzo may be a better person to explain this...GPS's have become commercially accessible and user friendly.  Just pop them out of the box, put a battery in them and start pushing buttons.
When I started using them, it was a lot more manual...we had to do 'mission planning', which involves determining where the satellites that provide your GPS with their 'fix' on your location.  You need to have a good 'spread' across your sky to have the most accurate readings.

The way that's done today is to consult your GPS's PDOP (Percent dilution of precision, I think)...if it's greater than 6, you're likely to have poor spatial resolution (not gonna get 1 meter accuracy).  Some GPS's allow you to set the PDOP, so that you only get good positional accuracy.

What's the projection/datum got to do with it?

It's specifically very complex to explain, but in general I'd explain this way.  Projection has to do with how you convert an orange peel to a flat surface....it doesn't work very well does it.  Mathematically, it's easy to do (well, for computers!).  The problem his that somewhere on any map of the spherical earth's surface, somethings gotta give, and that give could be called displacement...if you were a Costa Rican, and you were only concerned about having the least displacement possible in your map of Costa Rica, that's easy enough, but somebody in say Greenland, isn't going to be as happy with all the displacement that ended up way up there in the north.  

I'm going to guess that Gary will weigh in on this and suggest that everybody operate off of NAD87, so that 1)everybody operates off of the same base, 2)co-registration with regional topo maps is made simpler, 3)etc.

Otherwise, your eTrex that by default was set at say NAD 27, would disagree with Ed's Magellan with NAD87 (I don't know what Ed uses, just 'what-ifing'), and my Rockwell PLGR with an Alaskan Datum would all disagree...if we loaded a pre-determined set of coordinates for a champion hophornbeam in, and left from three different points or times, we would arrive at three different points.

The whole point of having a database with location information is replicability...bring on the skeptics, let them come measure ENTS trees, check ENTS good work!

-Don Bertolette

Don, I like the GPS data collection as well but I am not educated on it besides what my little ETrax can do.  That being stated, you lost me with projection/datum and how do you "standardized to your GIS base coverage"? Beth

Sounds like a great idea. I guess this would just apply for larger
more significant specimens of a particular tree? It should be simple
enough to easily understand yet complex enough to hold all valuable
data. Keep us posted. Exel could be used but not everyone has it and
some, like myself would need to learn how to use it.

An online form sounds good.

James Parton

James,

I would like to see ALL of the trees we measured entered into the system, then we could sort out for whatever parameter we wanted. we could do tall trees, fat trees, all of the trees of a species in a state, etc.  The web space supports implementation of a sql database.  Exporting to a spreadsheet would be good.

Ed Frank

That's A LOT of trees. I measure a fair amount but some others do much
more than I. Put it all together. It can be a lot. But text does not
take up much space on a server or hard drive. It should take minimal
work. You don't need anymore and it should be easy for all of us. I am
not saying it is a bad idea. All the measurement data in one place
makes sense.

Just thinking. If we entered the data ourselves onto an online form
would be great. The more I think about the idea the better I like it.
By entering it ourselves it might make it easier on you as well.

I like the sound of it so far. I guess it would have a link " button "
on the ENTS website to get to, or would it be on Google?  The ENTS
website makes more sense to me.

James. Parton

Different people keeping different parts of the list had worked in the past when the group was smaller.  As we grow, now up to 300 members, it is too unwieldy of a process. If someone drops out or passes away we lose that compilation.  Measurements are falling through the cracks, or will fall through the cracks, as they are made in area where nobody is making a compilation.  Even if a compilation is being maintained, individual measurement posts can be lost.  I hope we will be able to import those lists people are maintaining in spreadsheets to the overall database.  But at this stage the only option I see to keep up with the data, to prevent loss of the information, is to have  a mechanism whereby the person doing the measurements can enter the data himself into an online form.  And with approval that information can be compiled into a comprehensive ENTS - wide database.

Admittedly most of the members are not participating in the tree measurements, but the number of people measuring tree is growing, as are the breadth and number of areas being covered.  I don't think the catch-as-catch-can way the tree data has been kept track of so far will work anymore./  It will be a major effort just to incorporate all of the data already collected.  We can't afford to wait until we get any further behind.  

Ed  

ENTS,  (February 8, 2009)

I think this is the most critical project for ENTS to complete in the next year.  Please add any comments or additions to the suggested fields below.  Those fields underlined would be required fields.  (There should be an option to leave out girths.) We have talked about the general idea for years.  It is now time to get it up and running.  It should be web form available on the website for individuals to enter their data.  It would need to be something that is easy to fill out.  It would need to be something that would easily export into a standard database or spreadsheet format.  It would need to have a hold on input so that data would need to be approved before being incorporated into the larger database.  It is time, as Nike says, to Just Do It!   Does anyone have the programming skills to create this form for the website?

Ed Frank

REVISED DATA FORM FORMAT

Ideally the typed data should be persistent, so that when something is typed into the form, they have the option of selecting what was previously typed or to type something new.  This would facilitate reporting multiple measurements form the same site.

SPECIES ID

1) Common Name
2) Species/Scientific Name

(On the USDA site the database can be searched either by common name or species name. It would be nice if you could type in a common name and be able to select from a listing of scientific names.  If you typed in a scientific name it would auto fill in the common name)

LOCATION

3) Location- Country
4)Location - State  (two letter text box)
5) Location - County or Township  (twenty letter text box)
6) Location -Site
7) Location- Subsite
8) Location - Comment

(Location comments would be site name, something like GSMNP Bradley Fork, Street Address, some cemetery, etc. 40 characters)

9) GPS location  (degrees and decimal minutes for both latitude and longitude - GPS location auto conversion from other formats would be great or maybe a pull down to select GPS data format).      
10) GPS projection/datum collected
11) Elevation from GPS or map

12) Tree Name (twenty letter text box)  - (If the tree has some historical name or has been given a name. Field could also be left blank.)

MEASUREMENTS

13) Height (feet and tenths)
14) Methodology

15) Height Measurement method (Laser/Clinometer Sine top-Sine bottom, Pole, climb w/tape drop, etc. This would-be a pull down menu. If other was selected, this would open a dialogue box for an explanation.  If for example a pole was used to mark the base of the tree, but the height was determined otherwise by laser/clinometer it would still be laser clinometer method.)

16) Measurement type:  (Pull-down choose one: Single measurement, Selection from a set, Average of a set.)
17) Instrumentation:   Laser brand (15 letter text box or pull down)
18) Instrumentation:  Clinomter brand (15 letter text box or pull down)

19) Girth Breast Height or CBH (feet and tenths) [ Feet and inches or inches could be auto converted to feet and tenths]
20) Height of girth measurement if not at 4.5 feet. (feet and tenths)
21) Girth at root collar height (CRH) (feet and tenths)
22) CRH  (girth at root collar height) (ft)

23) Max crown spread (ft)
24) Max limb length (ft)
25) Avg crown spread (ft)

26) Method of Crown Spread Measurement
27) Base of crown height
28) Crown Volume
29) Method of Crown Volume measurement

30) Trunk volume (ft^3)
31) Method of calculation

FORM

32) Tree Form: Single (check box)
33) Tree Form Multitrunk - Number of trunks (two spaces)
34) Tree Fusion - Number of trunks (two spaces)

MEASUREMENT INFO

35) Measurer or measurers - (Spaces for up to three names in last name, first initial format)
36) Date of Measurement  (yyyy-mm-dd)
37) Trip report to List - Date, and Title, Photographs taken?

MISC. TREE NOTES

38)  Native Status - native species growing naturally, native to region but planted, exotic planted, and exotic naturalized
39) Tree Health Condition
40) Age Class (need categories)
41) Terrain Type (need classes)
42) Other - miscellaneous or optional information if applicable (Comment box may include expanded notes about tree health, location comments, setting, age estimates, age dates, whatever else might be relevant - up to 1000 letters)

I would like to see the input be persistent for some data fields so that if a value is typed in for one tree the location and other similar information would stay and not need to be retyped.  Maybe it could be a trip form that contained some base information for all trees in the set and spaces to type in the other information into a table pr the form?

Comment by Jeff Lacoy, "Unless a lot of stuff will be auto- formatted, I think the more use you can get out of drop-down menus, the better, at least for keeping a uniform look to a database or spreadsheet."

Reply, "I would like to see an option that the data entered be put "on hold" pending approval by an ENTS officer or designate so that junk data could be kept out of the database.  But each person would enter their own data."

Ed Frank

Ed-
Good job!
Your parenthetical comments are excellent...I would only comment that as the digital form gets more automated, the hardcopy (field going) would get more complex...that said, the more automated the better!
On the programming question, I don't even know enough to get in trouble!

-Don Bertolette

Yes I meant to have a line for ownership.  Bob had it in his list but I
inadvertently left it out of this compilation. I tried to merge both Bob's
list and mine along with suggestions made by other people, but I skipped
that one.

The comment about county/township -  Hmmm.  It should be County/Parish.
Below that we have site and subsite and comment.  If it is in a city then
city name and address could go into those fields.  I am not sure if the
township/town.city should be a level or not.  I am not sure how these are
structured elsewhere.   They may be different in other areas than PA.  It
likely is best to have the additional layer to make sure the structure is
parallel in all submissions.

The date format is specified as yyyy-mm-dd  so there is not any confusion
about whether a number is a month or day.  January is always 01 in the 5th
and 6th place.

Don,  The field sheet I guess would be just whatever you measured.  If you
measure the height, girth, and spread of the tree, you have the species,
most of the measurement information and technique information requested
already in your notes.  Some such as general location information,
instrument brands,GPS datum,  and so forth would be the same for all of the
set of trees sampled and not something to be filled out for each tree in the
field.  There are space available on the listing for items that might be
measured, but that could be left blank if not.  So aside from perhaps more
crown information, this isn't really asking for many more notes to be taken
in the field than people are already doing, but there would be some more
pulling together of information when compiling it for the form.

I would actually prefer to see the girths measured in inches rather than in
feet.  Bob suggested feet.  What do people think?

Ed

Ed-
I guess I'm exorably "institutionalized", as I have become used to a standardized field data sheet...with many staff members coming in and out of the workforce from year to year, it was helpful to have a standardized form (yeah, I know Joe, sign of a government geek...;>).  What would be a dragdown on a digital field page, would be a checkbox with the same choices that you would have 'scrolled' down on in a digital data recorder.
Of course, that is me again, assuming that ENTS might eventually end up with digital data collection devices (how many already have a PDA, which we at Grand Canyon used very effectively in the field (we had folks capable of creating 'front ends' that employed a 'clickable interface').
I suppose this could be pretty far off, and you've got to deal with 'now'...but it probably doesn't hurt to think ahead some.

-Don  Bertolette